UPDATED: Biola Queer Underground promotes LGBTQ discussion on campus

University planning response

UPDATED Thursday, May 17, 11:45 a.m.:

The recent conversation on homosexuality is slated to continue tomorrow morning with a five- to 10- minute “family discussion” during chapel, president Barry Corey announced Monday.

Discussion about Biola’s standards and its students belonging to the LGBTQ (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and queer) community has been buzzing around campus since last Wednesday when the Biola Queer Underground became public through posters, business cards and an ensuing flurry of social media activity.

The Underground describes itself as a group of LGBTQ students and allies who join in community for support and conversation on their website.

Biola's stance on homosexuality

On Thursday, Biola released a letter from Corey, as well as the school’s official Statement on Human Sexuality. Both documents described a desire to engage in conversations about sexuality that will extend into next semester.

The Statement on Human Sexuality, which was approved on Thursday by the Board of Trustees, expressed Biola’s official stance on same-gender sexual relationships alongside the standards regarding pre- and extra-marital sex.

"God’s design for marriage and sexuality is the foundational reason for viewing acts of sexual intimacy between a man and a woman outside of marriage, and any act of sexual intimacy between two persons of the same sex, as illegitimate moral options for the confessing Christian," it reads.

"Why single out gay people?"

Josh Wolff, a 2009 graduate of Rosemead School of Psychology, is a licensed psychologist and teaches at Rhode Island College. Wolff, who identifies as gay, has been corresponding with the Underground to offer advice and support.

He has published writings on the issue of homosexual students at Christian universities in both Inside Higher Ed and Christian Higher Education.

He commends Biola’s stance against pre-marital sex between any couple, but is concerned by the specifications of “homosexual behavior.”

“If people aren’t supposed to have sex before they’re married, why single out gay people in that phrase?” he asked.

It also “seems unnecessarily vague to say homosexual behavior,” he said, questioning whether hand holding or kissing were counted under those standards. 

Conversational climate for LGBTQ community

The members of Biola Queer Underground are choosing to remain anonymous, describing the attitude at Biola toward the LGBTQ community as one in which “most LGBTQ people feel isolated and fearful of rejection should we act with integrity and come out of the closet,” on their website. 

Chris Grace, Vice President for Student Development, University Planning, and Information Technology, said that while some students may hold a private view that is different from Biola’s official stance, most repercussions are involved when it comes to behaviors.

“A belief is one thing. Acting on that and telling other people to act on that — that violates what our community standards would be, and then we would [address that],” he explained.

BQU requests recognition for non-conforming gender identities

In response to the university's statement, BQU updated their website on Saturday with a list of questions they felt still need to be addressed, noting the issues of students who may deal with "non-conforming gender identity" and "those who do not view their own or other’s homosexuality as 'a struggle to maintain sexual purity.'"

Joshua Charles, a 2010 graduate from Biola’s music composition program, identifies as queer, a term which “has come to be sort of an umbrella, catch-all term within the queer community for any sort of non-normative sexuality,” Charles said.

He came out to most of his close friends soon after graduation, but did not tell his family until about a month ago.

Charles grappled with his sexuality during his time at Biola, not feeling particularly attracted to a specific gender. Because his attraction was “more romantic or relational” than sexual, he felt he had no outlet to discuss these issues, as they did not fall into typical categories.

“It would have been extraordinarily helpful for me as a student to have a safe space to explore issues and to not be threatened by negative stereotypes,” Charles said, emphasizing what he sees as the need for a group like BQU.

Students discuss their stance

Students on campus have begun discussing homosexuality, though the university has yet to provide any formal opportunities for conversation.

Sophomore Kaitlin Lanning hasn’t heard much of the conversation in everyday life, but has witnessed a lot of discussion online.

“So far, I’ve seen huge explosions of emotions and people yelling at each other over the Internet, but I think it’s kind of a rumbling here on campus and it’ll erupt at some point and everyone will be discussing it around campus,” she explained.

Biola Queer Underground said they would like to see a place on campus where sexuality can be discussed without fear of retaliation.

“Unless LGBTQ students who don’t view homosexuality or transgender identity as sinful are allowed to speak openly without threat, this conversation will continue to be one-sided,” reads the website. 

Conversations about contract breaking

Grace believes Student Development is having healthy conversations with students who have approached them saying that they are struggling with same-sex attraction.

“We would walk along, or engage with, or assist that . . . student,” Grace said.

However, if someone is actively engaged in a same-sex relationship, the process with Student Development will differ.

“On the other hand, if a student says ‘I’m not struggling in this area, I’m in a [same-sex] relationship, and I think you’re wrong and I’m right,’ that [process] will be very different because they are violating our standards,” he said.

This applies across the board for any kind of issue, like cheating, alcohol or homosexuality, according to Grace.

“We live in a broken world and everybody struggles in sins and we’re going to engage people and help them,” Grace said.

Beyond conversation between students and administration, the Biola Queer Underground has caused other students to interact.

Sarah Croswhite, sophomore and Coalition for Social Action chair, said the website has caused her to talk with her roommate and think about her stance.

“I think the whole website is definitely doing its mission statement of causing a conversation. … I think it’s good to have these conversations, as long as they’re not angry, crazy conversations or anything like that, I think it’s really good to have these conversations,” she said.

-- Christine Chan contributed reporting

 

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UPDATED Saturday, May 12, 5:30 p.m.: 

The Biola Queer Underground updated their website today with their response to the university’s statement on human sexuality and some answers to frequently asked questions.

The response, published on their homepage, highlighted the question of transgendered students or those with what the BQU refers to as “non-conforming gender identities.” Moreover, the response addressed the concern of students who do not see their homosexual identity as tied to sexual purity.

The BQU then reaffirmed their desire to “change hearts, not policies,” and elaborated on their concept of what a dialogue ought to look like on campus.

They then listed some questions for the university dealing with these issues.

Additionally, the organization has added a FAQ section to the website, addressing many of the questions that have been prevalent in online discussions.

They additionally added a tab titled “More” that includes published articles from "queer alumni." 

 

 

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UPDATED Thursday, May 10, 9:00 p.m.: 

President Barry Corey emphasized Biola’s commitment to participating in difficult conversations regarding sexuality in his letter and the Biola Statement on Human Sexuality issued tonight.

“We aim to be a Christian community of grace. We do not ask each other to be perfect, but we endeavor to be people in active pursuit of biblical truth and growth to impact the world for the Lord Jesus Christ,” Corey wrote in the letter.

Community is a topic of the Statement approved by the Board of Trustees today. The document attempts to clearly define Biola’s views on sexuality and marriage, saying marriages “model the relationship between Christ and his bride, the church …”

The Statement leaves no room for pre-marital, extra-marital or same-sex sexual activity for members of the university.

“God’s design for marriage and sexuality is the foundational reason for viewing acts of sexual intimacy between a man and a woman outside of marriage, and any act of sexual intimacy between two persons of the same sex, as illegitimate moral options for the confessing Christian,” it explains.

This definition is not meant to exclude further discussion of sexuality on campus, however. Instead, an excerpt says “We are committed to engaging difficult conversations with humility and love, prayerfulness and care, and all members of the Biola community are expected to treat one another with respect and Christ-like compassion. Hateful, bigoted or destructive interactions will not be tolerated.”

Additionally, Corey exhorted students to a standard of “kindness and respect,” as the conversation continues.

And he promised it will.

“In the coming academic year, we will have focused dialogue and campus-wide educational forums on human sexuality. Biola sees this as an opportunity to live out what it means to be a learning community of grace and love,” Corey wrote.

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UPDATED Thursday, May 10, 7:00 p.m.: 

In the wake of conversation on human sexuality started yesterday by the announcement of the Biola Queer Underground, Biola president Barry Corey released a letter concerning the continuation of that conversation shortly after 5 p.m. 

“Human sexuality has been a topic of ongoing conversation for our community in small groups and larger settings over the past 10 years. Recent conversations and posts around our campus have once again caused me to reflect on how we need to continue this conversation in a Christ-honoring way," Corey said in his letter addressed to the Biola community.  

Additionally, Corey included the newly approved Biola University Statement on Human Sexuality, which has been in the works for 18 months, according to the letter. 

The Statement, which was already slated for discussion, was officially approved today by the Board of Trustees during their regularly scheduled meeting, Corey announced. 

The letter and Statement will be released to students via a Student Communications email within the next day. The Chimes will provide a more detailed overview of the two as part of our continuing coverage tonight.

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ORIGINAL Wednesday, May 9, 5:00 p.m.: 

Biola Queer Underground business cards and posters canvassed Metzger Lawn early Wednesday morning calling for recognition of the LGBTQ — lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer — community on campus.

“I think it’s starting a lot of good dialogue on campus,” said junior Andrew Entzminger, president of the Democrat Club at Biola. “It’s a good thing. I’m glad this dialogue is being opened up. It’s a topic not really ever talked about.”

The business cards and posters included the group’s website link and an email address where LGBTQ students could privately reach them. 

On the Underground website the group’s goals are laid out in a letter to the university administration and community. The website states neither the group nor the website itself are endorsed by Biola.

“We want to bring to light the presence of the LGBTQ community at Biola. Despite what some may assume, there are Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals, Transgender, and Queers at Biola. We are Biola's students, alumni, employees, and fellow followers of Christ,” according to the website.

The university is planning a response to the group's concerns by responding to the Biola Queer Underground website in the next few days, according to Danny Paschall, dean of students. Such a complex issue can’t be responded to in just one sentence, he explained, saying that the goal of the university is to respond thoughtfully and respectfully.

The promotional materials were only present for a few hours before Campus Safety officers proceeded to remove the signage from the lawn and surrounding areas.

“Campus Safety picked them up because they were not approved to be posted around campus,” said Justin Shelby, administrative operations manager for Campus Safety.  “Anything posted on campus has to be approved and these signs weren't approved.”

The viral marketing and promotion has sparked conversations on Facebook and Twitter, despite the short time the posters were up, according to Entzminger.

“Even on Facebook there are dialogues with people who seem to be very opinionated against homosexuality in all forms,” Entzminger said. “There have been people who have been spreading the link on Facebook. I know several people have joked about reading the website before it gets blocked on Websense.”

Your Turn.  Post a Comment

  1. Janine Marderian

    I appreciate the fast response to this issue, however, it would have been great to hear from several different student perspectives instead of only one. I am looking forward to reading a thorough story about the response from Student Development and other administrators. May 9, 2012

  2. CARY - Class of 1981

    I guarantee, this is an infiltration at best. I suspect none of the people involved in this are truly and heartily interested in the mission of BIOLA. I am sure some were able to slip through the cracks of admissions, with the soul purpose to start this attack from within. DON'T FEAR! They will be soundly defeated! BIOLA may have had some changes, since some of us attended, but I do not believe it is even close to this kind of change! GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!
    May 9, 2012

  3. Andrew

    Cary, that is simply a ridiculous claim. There are people who are devout followers of Christ who are also LGBT. To suggest that people would come to this school simply to infiltrate it is ridiculous as well as simply demeaning to those behind this. Both sides should give the other the benefit of the doubt. Those for LGBT inclusion should not assume that those opposed are bigoted or old fashioned, and those in favor of Biola's stance should not assume the LGBT students are godless radicals. All things in love. May 9, 2012

  4. Joshua Kristianto

    Hooray for the Chimes! They are quick about getting the news out there, just like a professional news agency! The people over there are doing some great work, and I am glad that I have a source of information about school news that is run by an independent, student-run organization. The Chimes is right to report about this issue and hopefully the conversation on campus will be stirred up by it. May 9, 2012

  5. Stephanie

    Can someone please explain to me how a person can be a devout follower of Christ and at the same time be professing he/she is LGBT, and wanting to be acknowledged in a way that condones that behavior? Sin is sin, right? May 10, 2012

  6. John Kruckenberg

    @Stephanie, living in sin is living in sin.

    Struggling with LGBT temptations and feelings is not a sin. I struggle with lust. We all face temptations and trials in our lives. Now, giving into our temptations is sin. When I give into my lust and have pre-marital sex, that's a sin. Now if I'm consistently sexually active or denying the sinfulness of being sexually active outside of marriage, I'm living in sin. In the same way, if a person who is struggling with LGBT temptations gives in to their sin or does not acknowledge the sinfulness of a LGBT lifestyle, then they are living in sin.

    There is a HUGE difference between sinning and living in it. I personally doubt the validity of one's professed faith if they are actively living in sin. I don't see how someone can honestly love Christ and his gospel and continue to live a life that so starkly contrasts that. This goes for any type of sin, NOT just LGBT. The Bible consistently encourages us to judge one's faith by his works.

    Sadly, our generation has become too accepting of sinful lifestyles, and many are too afraid of being un-accepting to stand against sin. Fact is that sin is unacceptable before God, so sinful lifestyles are likewise unacceptable before God. There is no pretty picture about sin. It's disgusting and God hates it. You can't live in it and follow God. It just doesn't compute. May 10, 2012

  7. John Kruckenberg

    P.S. I realize that my post may have come off as pretty gruff, and if that offends anyone, I apologize for my delivery, but not for what was said. Truth is truth. God's Word is very clear on the topic at hand, and in all discussions we must refer back to what God's Word says. Also, we need to confront sin and engage in discussions with the same love and grace that Christ showed. May 10, 2012

  8. CARY

    Andrew, it is simple. (...and I agree with JOHN K.), If you embrace the lifestyle, you are at odds with God and scripture, and it is extremely doubtful that you are a Christian, if you know what the Bible says about it, and yet ignore it. Andrew, explain to us all how 1 Cor. 6 is irrelevant! May 10, 2012

  9. CARY

    Andrew, don't be so naive, LGBT groups have done this tactic with opposing groups before, and this looks no different. The plan is to force acceptance by creating a faction from within. This gives them a stronger stance in their fight! The idea is to convince enough "fence straddling" students to join in! This is not new! They've done it in public schools, the Catholic church, the Episcopal church, and others. May 10, 2012

  10. John Kruckenberg

    @Cary, ignoring the cries for open conversation of the topic will be worse for everyone. Christians need to understand that this is an extremely relevant topic and struggle in our society, one which many are misinformed about, and loving open discussion is necessary and inevitable. Squashing discussion of it doesn't make it go away. Loving and graceful conversation centered on the gospel is what must come out of this. Because ultimately, the gospel of Christ is the only thing that can bring redemption and restoration. May 10, 2012

  11. Marshall

    Cary, what exactly do you mean by "embracing the lifestyle"...?

    May 10, 2012

  12. Hannah

    Cary,

    I am saddened at your passionate response to "not fear!" You make a bold stance that those who are earnestly struggling are to be feared and not loved. Sin is sin, yes. We offer places for confession, repentance, and hearts to help those who are struggling with all kinds of issues at Biola. I think it's about time that this issue is brought to light. Students are hurting because they are afraid to speak out about their struggles. These students deserve a voice, too.

    Chimes staff, thank you for your quick response to this issue. Praying for wisdom as you continue toinform the greater Biola community. May 10, 2012

  13. CARY

    First to Marshall,
    To embrace a sin or, a Biblically objectionable lifestyle is to whole heartedly support it by, unbridled and non-remoresful actions, or lack of conscience, in the light of clear scripture.

    To, Hannah,
    You are right, those who are wrapped up in sin should not be feared, however, that was not the premise of my comment. You, sadly, (or purposely), misunderstood my point. We must love those, whatever the sin they are in; but if you read the article thoroughly, it is obvious that this is not a cry for help. It is a call to accept the lifestyle despite the teachings of scripture. How you came to your conclusion of my point is a bit bewildering! May 10, 2012

  14. CARY

    It is amazing to me, that when liberals are attempting to defend the indefensible, it is always in the guise of "needing to have a conversation"! We, as Christian can best address this topic, in the same way we address any sin - With the Gospel! It's easy. Use scripture. If it is a struggle, as I am sure it is for some Christians, there is support from rightly founded fellowships, which use the scriptures and prayer, and loving attitudes to help overcome and assist through the struggle. May 10, 2012

  15. John Kruckenberg

    @Cary, how can you share the gospel if you don't have conversations?

    It's like that terrible quote that is misattributed to St. Francis of Assisi:
    "Preach the gospel at all times, if necessary use words."
    Well words are necessary, and conversations are necessary. No one here is saying the gospel won't be proclaimed or affirmed. All we're saying is that conversation is necessary. May 10, 2012

  16. Jack

    This is a very interesting article and situation for Biola. It is encouraging to see dialogue about this extremely controversial issue being brought about.

    My only concern is that it will be an unfruitful discussion because the common criticism toward those that disagree with same-sex marriage is that they are "homophobic," "hateful," and "bigots." Surely, these are painful labels to be said to people who aren't those things (though, I would argue that some are).

    Likewise, when those of the LGBTQ affiliation hear people disagree with the LGBTQ lifestyle, they experience the pain of feeling rejected and discriminated against. They feel outcasted as a result of that position.

    I strongly question whether those of the LGBTQ community will be able to accept the position as being against their lifestyle (not them as persons). These are often conflated. May 10, 2012

  17. Hannah

    @Cary,

    My reaction to the issue has less to do with my thorough or insufficient reading of the article. Rather, it is based solely on personal and close relationships with those who are part of this supposed "infiltration." I apologize for perhaps misreading your initial post, but the language you use is so heated that I cannot help but be heart-broken at the way LGBTQ students have been treated at Biola through the years. I cannot speak on behalf of the members of the Biola Queer Underground. I really don't know whether this is a cry for acceptance of sin or a legitimate cry for help. My hope and prayer is simply that we reach out to those who feel they belong to the latter. May 10, 2012

  18. Marshall

    No, no Cary, you misunderstand me... I need to know what your understanding of the gay lifestyle is before I get into the biblical implications of it being a sin or not. May 10, 2012

  19. B.K. 04

    Dear All,
    I am really encouraged see that Biola students, alumni, and administration would have a conversation around LGBT life style, faith, and even Marriage (to be totally current, *see Obama's recent statements all over the news).

    I am getting married soon and have been thinking a lot about what that choice means in light of my beliefs and in light of the contemporary cultural implications.

    In premarital counseling we read a (Christian/Biblically-based) text that stated one of the primary goals for marriage is to be a haven to raise children in. I keep thinking about this, and thinking about the generous gay couples who have been adopting... and essentially taking care of orphans.

    Just a thought...
    Continue. May 10, 2012

  20. CARY

    To all who think I am oversimplifying the issue; where in scripture, can you show that a "dialogue" did not begin and end with addressing a sin as "sin", and it's purpose was not to point the way to Christ? Conversation and dialogue is great, but as Christians it does not stop there. We are at odds in this conversation, because we call it what it is,...Sin! It is good to have sympathy with someone who is lost, as we should, however, don't let your sympathies blind you to the mere Biblical facts! "Times of ignorance, God has overlooked, but now He commands all people everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness". (Acts 17:30). Folks, no matter how you discuss it, it is still about right and wrong; struggling with it, or outright diving into it! May 10, 2012

  21. CARY

    Marshall,
    When I say "lifestyle, I am only addressing the actions of someone who is resigned to pursuing same sex, sexual partnerships. If your point is about whether someone "chooses" to be a certain way, then the Bible does not give that as a qualifier. For those who have left the practice of same sex pursuits, there may still be a struggling issue to deal with, perhaps even throughout there time here on earth. It is dealt with through continued confession and repentance. We are drawn by our lusts and desires, however, Christ has made a way out. I hope this answers your question. I am not sure what else you are looking for. May 10, 2012

  22. CARY

    I wonder what the response would be if NAMBLA had left such cards and literature on campus. This group also seeks acceptance, and claims their relationships are consensual. Should their agenda be simply left to "dialogue"? May 10, 2012

  23. CARY

    This statement is from their website:

    "Reconciling faith with non-conforming gender/sexual identities is our most important and difficult goal. This of course will take time".

    So what type of help are they seeking, if it is help, they want?

    "NON-CONFORMING", is pretty clear.
    May 10, 2012

  24. Ryan

    I must be the only one who 100% agrees with Cary... The lifestyle is a sin and unbecoming of a follower of Christ, period. What more needs to be discussed? Azusa Pacific had this movement about 2-3 years ago and I was pretty discouraged at the fact that the administration caved in having to accept this "open" behavior. Students must understand the fact that these are "private" universities that choose to enforce certain rules and guidelines that coincides with the mission of the university which is based off scripture and strong beliefs. If you would like to be openly gay, go to another school where your lifestyle is more accepted. Based on what the gay/lesbian/whatever wants through recognition, it would be no different to allow palimony clubs to surface, or the acceptance of... you name it.
    I am not condemning the gay and lesbian community by saying they aren't Christians, or welcome at the university. But this public outcry for the world, let alone, the BIOLA community to accept their lifestyle is a bit backwards. If you have a problem with homosexuality and honestly seek help, then seek help. That's where the discussion should be. But stop trying to pressure the ones that choose to be at a university that stands against it to be forced to accept it, just as it stands against all sin and anything that is harmful to its students and it's community. I was extremely disappointed in the leaders at Azusa having allowed such a thing to be accepted. These universities are about the students, yes. However, the students don't run the universities and the leaders of BIOLA should recognize this and make a decision that is in line with the universities mission. May 10, 2012

  25. Andrew

    Cary, look I respect you and your opinion. But its this infiltration thing I want to argue against. I know the people involved in this, I know them well. I know the kind of people they are as well. They are honest, god loving people, hurt by the church in many instances, and battling through the tough question of how to do that. Please understand, this is not an infiltration, this is a long silenced group of people expressing their pain and hope with honesty. May 10, 2012

  26. B.K. 04

    @ Cary re: @Marshall comment 21.

    Many students may have been previously (or even still) afraid to broach the subject because of the exact sentiments you have outlined, painting the whole stage as a war against evil, against gay evil. Never being allowed to discover how to think about one's own sexuality within a Christian context - for fear that they would be seen as nothing more than a effigy of that evil.

    Rather than assume that opening this conversation is condoning "Lusts of the flesh" - can you see how it may be an opportunity for all involved to learn how to better love as Christ loved us, sacrificially and unconditionally?


    Matthew 22:36-40
    “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” May 10, 2012

  27. CARY

    Andrew,
    Thanks for your comment, however, their own website tells you, they have no intention of obeying God, when it comes to addressing homosexuality as a sin. Non-conforming, is a blatantly disobedient stance to scripture. And I have to say, that to outright ignore God's command is not a God loving expression at all! 1John addresses this clearly!
    Jesus said, "Why do you call me Lord and do not, the things I tell you?" Luke 6:46
    And I leave you to think on this, 1 Cor. 5:1-13
    Scripture is clear! If you claim the name of Christ, your only recourse is obedience! May 10, 2012

  28. CARY

    B.K. '04
    You completely ignore the fact that the LGBTQ group is not looking to conform to scripture. And please, your "victim" argument does not play out in scripture. Jesus never offered excuses for sin, although He is sympathetic with our sinful state. That is why He offers REDEMPTION. He wants to change us from sinful lifestyles; conversation, and dialogue not withstanding! You do no service to those locked in a sin by accepting what they do as though it does not keep them from a more perfect union and fellowship with God, found only in Christ. I will love all sinners, enough to listen to where they are in life, and then share with them the only Gospel that can save them out of that lifestyle. May 10, 2012

  29. DAVE

    Students STRUGGLING with the temptation of homosexuality should be compassionately and gracefully given all the help they need to live in victory over sin. Students STRUGGLING with whether or not this is sin should be given the benefit of brothers and sisters who will help them to grow in their knowledge of God and holiness. I hope these students get all the help and support they need to live in victory over homosexuality. We need to come along and help these dear people to embrace God's plan for their lives, which includes heterosexuality.
    However, this does not seem to be the goal of this group. Though I am sure some of them are struggling, seeking support in getting victory over homosexuality does not seem to be what this group is about. They seem to want ACCEPTANCE of homosexuality into the biola community. Biola students, staff, administration and faculty should come out with a clear Biblical stand on sexual purity; while inviting all who are STRUGGLING with this issue to receive the support and encouragement we all need to embrace sexual purity. May 10, 2012

  30. Manny

    I agree with Cary. I understand how this can be discussed in the world, but I don't understand why it's even being discussed at a Christian university. Is not the Scripture clear on this matter, both the O.T./N.T.? What about the "Power" of God unto Salvation? Salvation from what, just granting eternal life once this life is over? Or, is it salvation from the power/grip of sin? This is a case of POOR Theology and Philosophical worldview. You can be a non-believer, friend of a believer, or even a son/daughter of a believer...but if you call yourself a Christian and are struggling with homosexual feelings, Christ, whom you follow, has the "POWER" to transform you. Is this not the message of salvation in the Gospel? He came so we would no longer walk in darkness, but in His Light.

    Was this passage omitted from Scripture :
    "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such WERE some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."(1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)

    Please excuse my verbosity, but that's the Power of God I've experienced in my life, and I know to be true. Not mere words, but substance. He is the deliverer of our emotions, feelings, desires, etc. Of course, that is assuming they are professing to be followers of Christ, right? I would not address an audience of unbelievers in the same manner. God will judge the world. BTW, I am not homophobic, and I offer my friendship and love to friends and family, and strangers living in that lifestyle equally. Hoping and praying that God would bring them all to repentance and Salvation by His Power.

    I have friends who are professors at Biola. I live near Biola, and I hope my children go there some day....as a Christian University who stands firm in the Word of God, our Lord and Savior. May 10, 2012

  31. B.K. 04

    @cary

    1 Corinthians 5 - NIV provides the following headline: "Dealing With a Case of Incest" ...not homosexuality.

    Sexually immoral people can be strait too and this example is one of teaching in order to correct an issue of incest. Note that here is an example of TEACHING on the matter, not closeting the matter, but bringing it into the open.

    You mention also 1 John - "If we confess our sins [to God], he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

    Luke 6 - "...love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful." May 10, 2012

  32. Ashley

    Cary,
    I think you have misunderstood the use of 'non-conforming', as if you finished the thought that phrase came from, you would see that it says 'non-conforming gender identities,' not a refusal of conformity to God's word.

    And to everyone reading or commenting, try to put yourself in someone else's shoes for a moment. If you were an LGBTQ student and you came to see what the response was to this article, or the website, and all you saw were people throwing Bible verses in your face and calling you "gay/lesbian/whatever" or disgusting and a disgrace to God or crazy liberal faction hell bent on destroying the moral compass of the weak minded, how would you feel? It seems to be a little two faced to call anyone these things and then claim to love and want to help them. When was the last time you called one of your friends disgusting?

    People who identify as LGBTQ aren't a ministry or a project or whatever it is most Christians seem to see them as. They're just people. And the one's that have started this site are people who love God and want to open the eyes of students and faculty here to the hurt that they may be unintentionally causing.

    So to be honest, I don't care who thinks what is sinful or isn't. We need to talk about this at Biola.

    P.S. That NAMBLA thing made me very, very sad. These are the kinds of statements and comments that break my heart; be aware of what you are saying when you say it. May 10, 2012

  33. CARY

    B.K. '04
    Continue to 1 Cor. 6:9-11

    The opposite of not inheriting the kingdom of God, is to end up in hell. B.K. '04, either one has a mind for obedience or they stand against God. What you are doing is "kicking against the goads!" May 10, 2012

  34. CARY

    Ashley,
    NAMBLA makes me sad too. I am fully aware of what I am saying; but I thank you for the advice. May 10, 2012

  35. B.K. 04

    @cary

    In the end, you may be right, Cary.

    Unfortunately I just know all too well how poorly we tend to represent God's Love and so that is my primary concern when issues like this are raised. I would assume that this community has experienced hurt. For that I may be considered foolish to you. And again, I may be wrong, but for all the things in scripture that are hard for me to understand, I know one thing - that God desires us to be humble and loving. May 10, 2012

  36. John Kruckenberg

    Responding to Cary is causing no amount of good. At this point we're just beating to death the horse of disagreement. Obviously this only proves the need for open dialogue and conversation on the matter, but if that dialogue just ends up being hostile it isn't doing anyone any good. May 10, 2012

  37. CARY

    John K.

    No hostilities felt or intended; True believers who see this as sin and bondage, have nothing but love for those caught up in it. That too, is obedience! But wasn't THIS a conversation? Didn't we have dialogue? Unless, you mean it only if some of us agree with LGBTQ! May 10, 2012

  38. Michael

    Love that Biola is writing on this. Here's why:

    1. Read the word--the homosexual lifestyle is not in your best interest if you want to be a growing believer in Christ. It simply is not what God has for you.

    2. It is not wrong to have thoughts or be tempted toward homosexuality, but it cannot be our identity--our identity is in Christ! Our society has almost forced the LGBT community to believe that our sexual attractions (right or wrong) have to define who we are! This is not true and is not of God!

    3. We are forgiven! I don't believe that God will send someone to hell that earnestly seeks him and struggles with homosexuality. If that is true, then adulterers, cheats, murderers, heck even liars would all be going to hell. We are all redeemed through Christ and should live that way!

    4. We need to inform the young LGBT community and the rest of society of the facts. We need to give people the right information and the right research to show that there is a reason the bible does not condone it. It simply is not in our best interest.

    5. Love love love! God has put us here to love one another! May 10, 2012

  39. DAVE

    @Michael! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! Thank you so much for focusing the conversation on TRUE love! May 10, 2012

  40. Hannah

    Michael....thank you! May 10, 2012

  41. Other Andrew

    Cary- Leave the student newspaper alone, you're the Class of '81. If you wanted to post comments in the student newspaper, you should have done what your classmate R.A. Torrey did and posted them back in '81, cause now your ship has sailed! May 10, 2012

  42. CARY

    Michael,
    Well said, brother! May 10, 2012

  43. Michael

    It's very Interesting that those of you who support this group seem to think you know how to love better than Jesus does. Those who oppose this group have stated their love for LGBTs but based on the example of Jesus. Jesus never loved without dealing with the sin. You supporters somehow think it is unloving to call sin , sin. Was Jesus unloving to the woman at the well. I meanHe put her on blast. Point blank. Only then was she able and willing to start to let go of the flesh and begin to talk about spiritual things which led her to recognize Jesus as the messiah. Look folks. If you want to accept them as LGBT just say so. Otherwise there is no conversation to be had accept one that has the ultimate goal of delivering them from that sin. May 10, 2012

  44. CARY

    Andrew,
    Thank you for revealing your hostility; but, once an Eagle, always an Eagle!!

    Love you, man! Seriously! May 10, 2012

  45. Philip

    Cary, I think the biggest change since you've been here is the fact that we now value proper grammar and spelling. We also know how to use commas. KAPOW! May 10, 2012

  46. Tiffany

    If we can say anything, we can say it's not simple. To say it is, that's lie on both sides of the argument.

    I think the best thing that can happen is simple, healthy discussion. It breaks my heart to see people trying to shove this away, like it doesn't matter. It's unfair and unjust to try to silence your brothers and sisters in Christ who feel oppressed, like they don't have a voice, like they can't be loved.

    Before you say, "I love them just not what they do," let me politely question that. Do you know them? Have you taken the time? Because the answer is, if you haven't heard them, you probably haven't taken the time to try and honestly love them.

    I think the fact that this underground group had to remain underground for so long says that there is a level of oppression, or at the very least fear of reaction, and I think on a campus that proclaims Christ-like love, fear of judgement is unacceptable.

    Talking about it won't solve anything. But it's the first step. May 10, 2012

  47. Ty Bradley

    As a Vanguard alum (SCC actually) it pains me to use BIOLA in any sentence other than "Beat beat BIOLA!" but kudos is in order if indeed the University does use this opportunity to initiate dialogue on this issue. Like it or not, younger Christians - including self-identified Born-again/Evangelicals - are more and more seeking open discourse on this issue and even a safe space within their churches (and Christian colleges) to disagree with traditional interpretation/doctrine. It would be a mistake to assume that all who would challenge the traditional view on homosexuality and Christianity are 1)gay themselves, and 2) espousing a dim view of the authority of Scripture.

    There is a growing body of heterosexual Christians who take into consideration their relationships with family members and loved ones who are gay and the way the Spirit witnesses to them about such people in their lives. As a result of that deeply considered and prayerful reflection they have begun to wonder if the whopping 6 total supposed references to same-gender intimacy found in Scripture ought not be more viewed in the same "non-prescriptive" light as passages that reference tolerance or even advocacy of human slavery, infanticide, mysogyny and a good number of other institutions or practices that are now wholly disavowed within traditional Protestant Christianity. They have begun to ask whether or not the same exegetical explanations given for the presence of such endorsements in biblical writings and the justifications for not applying them quite so literally, might not also apply to the 6 so-called homosexuality passages as well.

    There is now an established body of published academic exegesis that does present alternative interpretations and which offers sound hermeneutics for why traditional theology on the issue may not be the preferred conclusion given all the research and data available. While such alternative theologies cannot credibly claim to be irrefutably correct, they are based on accepted sound academic methodology that is at least on par with that methodology which would advocate for the prevailing "traditional" interpretation of these passages, and which stand as equally plausible interpretations.

    This has allowed Christians with non-traditional beliefs about homosexuality to read these passages in a different light that nonetheless resonates with their pre-existent high view of the authority and inspired-nature of Holy Scripture. They, in effect, conclude something akin to the following: "The Bible is the inspired Word of God. Even so, God does not want us to dash the heads of our enemies children against rocks, posses other human beings as slaves, force women to be silent in Church and ask their husbands (who presumably have better cognitive abilities) what the sermon meant once they get home, and God also does not have a problem with His homosexual children forming loving families with one another." (continued) May 10, 2012

  48. DAVE

    Ephesians 4:29; 29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. 30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
    Those who disagree with Cary (which I do not) are welcome to respectfully do so on this thread. But I hope I speak for everyone when I say that those who want to attack Cary for things like his age and grammar DO NOT have God's glory and mutual edification in mind. We can disagree with each other in Christ, but attacking each other is inappropriate. I urge all participants in this post, to strive for love and the building up of one another. May 10, 2012

  49. Ty Bradley

    (part 2 of 3) Now, traditionalists can and of course will hoop and holler that this is the kind of deceptive doctrine that sounds good to the ear that Paul warned us to look out for, but the fact remains that more and more Christians are becoming sympathetic to this view, if not outright championing it. Just as the few holdouts in contemporary Christianity in the area of women in ministry and other leadership roles are fast becoming relics and irrelevant to the majority of both mainline and evangelical Protestant Christianity, so it may very well be in the coming decades on the issue of what the Bible really does or does not have to say about homosexual persons.

    Every Christian is given the privilege of searching the Scriptures and discerning the witness of the Holy Spirit in working out their own salvation with fear and trembling, and that includes arriving at a place of peace with one's views on what the Bible says about the cultural issues of our day, even if they do not square with where the majority of believers are with it. And that knife cuts both ways. Today it may be the "gay is okay" group of Christians who believe they are holding to what is true in spite of what is popular in the Church. Tomorrow it may very well be the "pray the gay away" crowd who sees themselves in that minority position.

    It probably comes as no surprise at this point that I am inclined to believe that God creates homosexuals intentionally and calls them into divinely appointed relationships to the glory of His Name. In point of fact, I pastor a vibrant church that comprises many such Christian couples. Even so, I respect that most Christians presently disagree, and I respect that their theological conclusions can be legitimately argued for with academic integrity.
    May 10, 2012

  50. Ty Bradley

    (part 3 of 3)
    What I will ask these Christians to keep in mind is that their doctrine as it relates to how God feels about certain types of people, and the passion and language they use to promote that doctrine from the pulpit and in the public square has unimaginably profound practical consequences in the lives of people whom God fiercely loves. Whether you know it or not there are friends in your church today who are dying inside, many of them just teenagers. They look at themselves in the mirror every night filled with shame and self-hatred wondering why God hates their dirty disgusting distorted lives so much but wont see fit to change them even after years of agonizing heart-felt prayer. They feel plastic every time they see you in church and smile and act like they are just the same as you are, and that makes them hate themselves even more. There are also parents of gay teens in your church who are terrified their dirty secret will become known in your church and they will be ostracized. They worry that once the church finds out they will be forced to choose between giving their child unconditional love and being seen as properly parenting their child in the way he/she should go. They too feel plastic in your church, and they will one day either walk out of your church and say, "God do what you will, but I love and accept my child exactly as they are," or, as I have seen tragically way too often, they will allow your doctrine preached from your pulpit to counter every genetic instinct they have as parents and they will alienate their child, giving him/her ultimatums that will very likely end with that child either dead or homeless and unimaginably exploited in ways that cry out for some millstones to be placed around a few necks in the so-called "Christian" Church.

    Anyway, just a few things to think about for those on here who are interested in dialogue. For those who aren't, I recognize that everything I have written just sounds like so much heretical, worldy drivel...and I respect your view on that and am not offended by it, since I know Him in whom I have believed and am confident in how He has and continues to perfect His good work in me. But, I put it up here because someone reading may be hurting or searching and the perspective and experiences I have to share may be just the word they have been praying to receive on this subject.

    Be blessed, each of you!
    May 10, 2012

  51. A. Incandeza

    Grammar and spelling are important! It's hard to take an argument seriously when it looks like it was written by a pre-teen. May 10, 2012

  52. Ashton Russell

    Ok.... Lets state the obvious.... Biola is a PRIVATE university. They can kick anyone out for what ever they want. The Private University established a code of conduct, did you sign it in order to be admitted? Yes. If you don't like it, it's very simple. Go somewhere else. May 10, 2012

  53. Biola Honey Badger

    Thanks for your comments, Ty. I appreciate the thoughts and your positivity.

    Honey Badger out. May 10, 2012

  54. Elizabeth Sallie | editor-in-chief

    Hi everyone,

    Thanks for your comments. I so appreciate that you are all taking advantage of the opportunity to make your voice heard and engage in this conversation.

    My prayer is that we will continue to do so in a beneficial and healthy way.

    Just a quick reminder: we will not tolerate any threatening, harassing, profane or discriminatory material. We reserve the right to delete comments that we feel hinder the conversation, rather than promote it.

    Thanks again!

    --elizabeth sallie | editor-in-chief May 10, 2012

  55. Michael T

    As Cary has pointed out, discussion seems to mean "agree with me." Notice how it is the love by accepting everyone as they are even in sin is the side that us posting the negative , pajoritive, nasty comments. If you go back through and read you will find none from those who oppose this group. Standing up for sin rather than Holiness can never produce a loving spirit. Why such anger and venom towards those who merely agree with scripture? Why does it produce such a reaction? May 10, 2012

  56. Kris Yee

    Pithy statements and clever one-liners are no good in this sort of context. But let me offer one anyway:

    Don't be a douche. Listen to people. Love people.

    Yes, everyone has Scriptural backing for or against this topic. Yes, everyone feels passionately about their own specific opinion. No, that doesn't give you the right to close your mind and not listen to what a brother or sister has to say. On either side of the issue.

    You're not arguing against people. You're arguing against ideas. No matter how different or 'weird' someone's worldview is, he or she still a human being made in the image of God. "For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places."

    And no, this isn't the gay people forming an army and coming to burn down the school. Like...seriously? I can't believe that even had to be said.

    "Little children, love one another." May 10, 2012

  57. Josiah---Supporter of BIOLA

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV
    Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    I only bring this verse to light that when it comes down to what the word of God says, it says that Homosexuality is not right in the eyes of the Lord. It also brings up other things that many christians, including me, have done. These things we have done are forgiven through the blood of Jesus Christ and we should not forget that. If we wish to address this issue and discover if it will harm or protect the BIOLA environment, I say we seek the council of those who are wiser. Could we hold a conversation/debate with the intelligent minds of those who lead us on campus? May 10, 2012

  58. Joseph

    Kris Yee,

    "Don't be a douche. Listen to people. Love people."

    Well said.
    May 10, 2012

  59. Branden - Class of '05

    I find the whole thing intellectually dishonest about a lifestyle we know is morally wrong. Look LGBT Biolans, we aren't out to get you. You're just broken like the rest of us. Just acknowledge this lifestyle as a temptation for sin and not push an agenda of acceptance of something immoral at a Christian university. Frankly, the whole thing exudes a lack of identity in Christ and a sense of self-importance. May 10, 2012

  60. Kris

    Has anyone ever stopped and thought about how heavy the weight of homosexuality is in light of its forbidden nature?

    Essentially, in saying that a Christian cannot live a homosexual lifestyle, it condemns one who feels homosexual attraction and also desires the will of God to living his or her entire life alone. One doesn't get to experience marital love, a wedding, a family, growing old with someone...

    Yes, it might in fact be wrong. That doesn't mean we should discount the heavy weight of what it means to be a homosexual Christian.

    Take some perspective and have some compassion. May 10, 2012

  61. Branden

    Kris,

    I agree with your sentiment on empathizing with the homosexual burden along with the plethora of other temptations out there, but let's not venture to the point of excusing actions and lifestyles.

    "And no, this isn't the gay people forming an army and coming to burn down the school. Like...seriously? I can't believe that even had to be said."

    A link for you
    http://johnshore.com/2012/05/10/biola-christian-u-students-form-underground-queer-club-despite-risks/comment-page-1/ May 10, 2012

  62. Stephanie

    Cary,

    I am appalled and offended at your commentary on this feed, specifically when you essentially compared the LGBT community with NAMBLA. I will unabashedly say that that comment was far out of line, and I am personally hurt that you would even associate the gay community at Biola with pedophilia. The issues are NOT the same, and that sort of ignorance is why many people in the unbelieving world feel strong adversity towards Christianity.
    I want you to know that I absolutely see your passion and zeal for the Word, and that your defense of your points comes from Scripture and your desire to uphold our God's commands, and for that I am glad. We need Christians who are passionate about the Word of God and unashamed to claim its truth. However, it is increasingly clear in reading your posts that you have had very little contact with anyone who has ever wrestled with homosexuality. Before you continue to make theological statements about how Christians should address this issue, I recommend that you sit with someone who identifies themselves with the LGBT community and just listen. Don't speak, don't clarify that you love them but don't agree with their lifestyle, just listen. Ask them how they came to identify themselves there. Ask them how they've experienced rejection, searing pain, and wrestled for years with the desire to be loved as they are and find acceptance. While I understand many Christians' rejection of "tolerating sin," I think that we need to recognize that the move to a homosexual lifestyle is a decision that runs so deep and is woven intricately with a person's identity, more so than many other choices a person makes externally. We need to love people in the way our Abba loves us, a love that sees beyond our shortcomings, sins, and struggles. Opening up this conversation is the first step toward healing the deep wounds the church has left in the homosexual community, no matter if you take a hard stance on the issue of homosexuality as a sin or not. Please, let's watch our words and remember that the world is watching us and many are expecting us to act fearfully and hatefully. Let's be first prayerful and slow to speak, acting in love and humility.

    Remember Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 13:1 - "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal." May 10, 2012

  63. Kris

    Hey buddy,

    I'm not excusing anything. I'm just asking those who tend to be quick to speak to instead listen to the stories and the pain and the honesty behind this movement. I'm going to go on the record saying I don't wholly agree with their aims, but I do think that they need to be respected, listened to, and really heard.

    PS Read the article. Interesting read (funny author! I laughed a few times). Still not convinced that this is representative of an attempt to overthrow Christendom. They just want to be acknowledged. Heard. Dare I say, understood? Understanding doesn't mean agreement. It means understanding. Because their opinions DO matter. And so do they. May 10, 2012

  64. Beyonce

    Cary? We miss you. May 10, 2012

  65. John

    @Branden (comment 61)

    Thanks for the link.

    It clearly shows that the students behind this are NOT just merely people who are struggling with homosexuality in need of help (although some might be). Instead they are activists who want to push the LGBT agenda here at Biola. They say they want a "conversation" but instead they really want their lifestyle to be accepted and respected by the Biola community. They are not asking for advice on how to deal with their issues, they think they're right and they want Biola to listen to them. They're method is covert but aggressive. They say that they only want to change hearts and not policies but their underhanded, subversive actions hint at their intellectual dishonesty. It bothers me that they receive assistance from groups from other universities. May 10, 2012

  66. Josiah

    I am going to expand upon what Kris said a little earlier. I think most of the people who are rising up in opposition could be associating this specific LGBTQ group with the general majority. I pose this question though: are they identifying with LGBTQ and persueing similar acts, or are they claiming LGBTQ because of same sex attraction without acting upon it? May 10, 2012

  67. Rick

    Someone earlier pointed out the God put us here to love, love, love...I respectfully disagree. God placed us here for the singular purpose to bring glory to his name. The active and unrepentant lifestyle, be it gay or straight, is not what God desires for us. 1 Cor 10:31 whether you eat or drink or whatever you do unto the glory of God. Certainly this does not include those living in unashamed and unrepentant sin.

    I struggle with sin, I lust after women, I think mean things abut people, I lie, I cheat...but I feel broken about it, I turn to Chist for forgiveness...i agree with someone's sentiment above that this movement does not seem to just be looking to dialogue, it seems it is looking to outright acceptance (could be wrong, just my perception) and the buzzwords 'dialogue and discussion' should rightfully be met with trepidation and care because they come right out of the postmodern and Emergent Church play book where Christ is devalued. As pointed out above, the 'discussion' is a quick one that can start and end with 1 Cor. 6, homosexuality among many other things is unholy and apart from God's will, scripture is crystal clear in that. If we are to be conforming to the image of Christ we should be striving to adhere to scriptures and live holy lives.

    To be quite transparent for a moment I've been struggling lately spending too much time with people who want to drink a lot, and that in turn makes me want to soothe same. I tell myself it's ok to hang out with sinners, Jesus did that to, only to be reminded that Jesus did spend time with sinners, but he did not spend time with them in their sinning, he brought me close to him and they became holy followers of Christ.

    I get the feeling many people on this thread are in support of the movement and it seems that in addition to keeping loving hearts and minds we cannot underestimate the justice of God. I'm reminded of a line from a song I grew up listening to "one hand holds his terror and the other one holds his love, in his face you see both lion and the lamb."

    If you're interested in biblical teaching on this subject outside of the Word itself I would recommend checking out YouTube videos by pastors such as John MacArthur, John Piper, and Al Mohler.

    I'll end with another line from a song I was listening to recently "Teach me to weep for the times that I've failed you...and teach me to walk in a way you'd approve. Take me, teach me to be more like you."

    I encourage all to examine themselves, to turn their faces to Jesus anda the scriptures for instruction on this subject...

    (p.s. I do find it a little odd that this subject is singled out...where is the drug abuse symposium or the alcoholism conference. In the 3 years I spent at Biola I knew more people struggled with drugs and drinking than with immoral sexuality. Don't those people need our help as well ?) May 10, 2012

  68. Kris

    Dearest Rick,

    I appreciate your zeal and passion for the glory of God. It is commendable, and it is something that we often have a hard time cultivating, especially when we must hold His love and His justice together in a holistic view of His character and praise Him despite our lack of ability to understand. But to over correct and discount love for the sake of justice is just as wrong as what you speak against. Both are of vital importance. However, since we a human and God is God, I prefer to leave God in charge of justice ("Vengeance is Mine. I will repay.") and take upon myself those greatest commandments which Jesus prescribed for us. Matthew 22:34-40 reads:

    But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” May 10, 2012

  69. John

    @Kris

    I hear ya. We should be open to hearing them out and listening to what they have to say.

    Then what?

    What do you think should come out of the conversation? May 10, 2012

  70. Kris

    @John (I just love twitter),

    We should figure out the theological arguments that defend the position they're coming from. We should check those against good, sound theology and fresh reads of Scripture and decide if we agree or disagree. If we agree, then that's that. If we disagree, then we should continue to hear them out and allow them to be a part of the university, with the understanding that they are at odds with the teachings of Biola's Biblical Studies and Spiritual Formation departments. Why would we ostracize them because we believe them to be in sin and in need of a change of heart? Wouldn't we want to "draw them in and make them holy" as was suggested in an earlier post?

    Biola is not the Church. It is a private institution that instructs Scripture and equips students to impact the world for Christ. Were Biola the Church, it would have the theological right to excommunicate people living in sin, after going through the necessary steps. But we aren't. We're an academic institution. End of story. May 10, 2012

  71. John

    @Josiah (comment 66)

    You ask: "are they identifying with LGBTQ and persueing similar acts, or are they claiming LGBTQ because of same sex attraction without acting upon it?"

    I guarantee you that there are people here at Biola who struggle with homosexual tendencies and are confused and who are looking for help. I also guarantee you that there are people who don't struggle with it, but they wholeheartedly accept it, and are not looking for help or guidance against it. I have a feeling that the founders of this group are the latter I described. Now they may not "act" on those desires but they believe that those desires are not wrong.

    Also in reference to the article linked to in comment 61, it sounds to me that the founders are intelligent people. I therefore give them the benefit of the doubt that they know what LGBT means. LGBT is not "having homosexual feelings or tendencies". LGBT is a cause... an ideology. If they align themselves with it, they agree with the cause and the ideology. And I think if you read their material, it's very obvious. They want to be able to openly proclaim their orientation, respected and accepted here at Biola. May 10, 2012

  72. Nathan Wagenet

    Hey, people: Love is the greatest of all the commandments. But guess what? Love does not mean accepting everything that people do. It means accepting PEOPLE, no matter who they are, no matter how bad their sins are. It means accepting someone worse than Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, the 9/11 terrorists, or anyone else like that if they truly want to come to Christ. But it NEVER means accepting their sins. If we really love people, it's not JUST about accepting them; it's about wanting what is best for them, and sin is NEVER what's best for them. Love God; love your neighbor; but you're certainly not loving God if you don't listen to what He says, and He says that homosexual activity is wrong.

    If you honestly want to have a discussion about whether or not homosexual activity is sinful according to the Bible, that's a reasonable topic for discussion. But if "discussion" means "accept what I'm doing even though you think it's sinful," then I, for one, refuse. And that does, indeed, seem to be the point of this group, particularly based on that article which Branden linked to above. May 10, 2012

  73. Reginald Pearson

    Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. May 10, 2012

  74. Hannah

    @Rick

    I do not know if I fully agree that your comparison of drinking to homosexuality is equally the same. Yes, the word says "no sin is greater than another" although, you can chose to drink with your friends or not whereas, Christians who "struggle" with homosexuality do not just CHOOSE one day that they like the same sex. It is a consist battle within their hearts and mind, what they know and how they feel. There are those who think being gay is a choice but yet, they do not know how it feels.



    For all those who have not spent time with homosexuals, try putting yourself in their shoes for a few minutes and let them tell you how hard of a struggle it is.

    May 10, 2012

  75. Kris

    Hey Nathan. Are you going to that thing at Christine's tonight? I, for one, am STOKED on the pancakes.

    Anyways. I agree. God hates sin. However, do we respond to that by ostracizing, criticizing, and refusing to listen to sinners? Or do we invite them to the table and dine with them so that we might listen to their stories and come to know them better? Only through the second option can we ever earn the right to speak into their lives in any manner, let alone to get them to drastically change their worldview.

    Hating sin is good. How do you propose we properly do that while loving people? May 10, 2012

  76. Adam Steves, Class of 2000

    So when are the witch hunts gonna start? Let's dunk and lynch these satanists!

    May 10, 2012

  77. John

    @Kris (comment 70)

    Biola already has a stance on this issue. Now, I see no harm in discussing the issue and reassessing the position, however, I doubt that the position will change. I believe that Biola's position reflects an accurate interpretation of Scripture and is therefore true.

    You say that Biola is not the church, I agree. However Biola is part of the church (the body of Christ). I would even argue that Biola is an important asset to the church. We are also not just an educational institution, we are a community of believers with the purpose of proclaiming the truth. What that means is that we are not neutral. We have a purpose, we have a stand, and we operate based on that purpose and that stand.

    Now, you say we should have a discussion and let those who disagree on this issue still be part of the community. My question is why? What is the benefit of letting those who are against what we believe be part of the community especially on such a fundamental issue of sexuality and sin? Wouldn't that undermine the very purpose and stand that i was talking about?

    I think this institution has the responsibility to protect the integrity of this community and the purity of what it stands for. This is what sets Biola apart from the likes of Princeton and Harvard who have compromised their original purpose of being.

    Now regarding those who are truly struggling and are looking for guidance in this issue. As a community we shouldn't ostracize them, but help them. And I think Biola already has such things in place in the form of Student Development and the counseling center. But when it comes to those who disagree and want to change Biola from the inside, they should just go somewhere else because that's not what Biola is. May 10, 2012

  78. Cary

    Stephanie,
    Obviously you are angry, and that may blind you to being rational in one point; that being the fact that you don't know me or my social experiences, therefore I will tell you that in my 52 years of life I have come across and spoken to many homosexuals. Both those who struggle and those who have no desire to change. I have learned one thing. They both need a Savior, and not simply good words of comfort to make them feel better about their sin. As to your other point, homosexuality is a perversion of God's plan. NAMBLA is nothing but a circle for homosexuals to live out their desires in the worst way. It too is a perversion of God's plan. Intent is not the question. The Bible only addresses the sin. And so do I. You may feel differently, but your difference is with the Word of God and not me! I am not, name calling or being mean spirited in any way. A person who steals for food is no less guilty than the one who steals for greed. The homosexual whose interest is in consenting adults is no less guilty than the pedophile. They both will be judged for choosing to live out of their desires of the flesh, if they do not repent and trust Jesus for total forgiveness and salvation. May 10, 2012

  79. Kris

    Hey John,

    I hear your point, but I think that from it, we need to decide a few things.

    1. What is it that the institution stands for?

    I think that there may be a huge difference between standing for the cause of Christ and standing for the cause of the Judeo-Christian moral code. I think that Christ would want those in the LGBTQ community to be in classrooms learning theology and reading the Bible. Just my opinion.

    2. Should 'unrepentant' homosexuals be allowed to take part in any Christian community?

    If not, how do we expect there to be any other sort of influence on their lives? I understanding hating sin, but Jesus did still in fact spend lots of time with unrepentant sinners. The Word says he spent time with sinners, prostitutes, and tax collectors; not former sinners, former prostitutes, and former tax collectors. Again, just based on my view of Scripture. May 10, 2012

  80. Kris

    Hi Cary,

    I'm Kris. I'll be graduating this semester from our beautiful institution with a degree in Communication Studies. I have a passion for youth ministry and currently work with junior high school students at my church in Huntington Beach. My area of ministry is, was, and always will be students. I think that young people are so incredibly susceptible to attacks from the evil one from every direction that the formative years are also almost always the most dangerous.

    This is why I find your comments on this thread to be so dangerous. Not because they lack truth, because they don't. In the holistic picture, you are correct. Your passion and zeal for the Word are admirable, and the passages you have quoted are applicable and good. However, I believe you are missing part of the picture. God's justice was poured out once on Christ for all of our sins, and will be poured out in the end of all things, onto those who continue to be unrepentant and without grace. In the meantime, however, we need to love people. Yes, that means that we should not let close brothers and sisters live in sin without pointing it out to them, but it also means that we should remove the planks from our eyes so that we can see to remove the specks from those we love. I think we need to realize that our plank might be pride or a lack of love, which we must get rid of before we can assess and deal with the sins of others.

    If we don't get rid of those planks, then we run the risk of speaking Truth, but without Love. If we do this, the consequences for these young people struggling with identity are dire. Self-harm and cutting statistics related to homosexuality and the identity crises that come with it are absolutely heartbreaking, let alone the rates of suicide. These people are in danger if we choose to speak full of pride and without love, belittling them and making them feel valueless.

    We need to hate sin. We just need to make sure we're not killing the sinner by doing so.

    Go in Grace. May 10, 2012

  81. CARY - Class of 1981

    Kris,
    Before I respond, I need to be clear on something. Do you believe anyone goes to hell? I just want to clear on some part of your doctrine. It seem you said something, that sounded very universal, which is a false theology, and I want to accuse you of that viewpoint. But, again, will anyone be going to hell in your view? Afterward, I may or may not answer. Just curious. May 10, 2012

  82. Sean

    I don't think the comment section of the chimes website is the proper forum to discuss this issue. This forum is too informal and impersonal to have a meaningful discussion. People are more likely to speak without compassion on here than they would be if they were face-to-face with the person they are talking with. Give up this meaningless discussion and have a meaningful discussion with someone whose point of view might make you uncomfortable. May 10, 2012

  83. Nathan Wagenet

    Hannah: Alcoholics don't choose to be alcoholic, either. Don't compare it just with choosing to drink; compare it with those who are stuck in alcoholism. Seems a lot more a propos at that point.

    Kris: Thanks for your own humble and loving attitude in this discussion. I hope that I can respond in kind. (And yes, I am going tonight. See you there in a bit!)

    Anyway. I don't believe I have once said that we ought to "ostracize, criticize, and refuse to listen to sinners." I understand that some Christians do that, but I want to make clear that that is not what I'm saying we should do. I will restate, however, that I will not "dialogue" if that means accepting homosexuality as okay, because that goes against the Bible, and God is the supreme authority here. But I will talk with them about how to deal with that sinful tendency, as I would like others to talk with me about my struggles with pornography, self-control, pride, etc.

    I think, regarding your response to John in #79, we must decide what sort of Christian community Biola is. I'm not sure I agree that homosexuals who wish to practice homosexuality should be in Biola's classrooms learning about those things, but that's a hard question to answer until we have a solid definition of Biola's place in the body of Christ.

    Along the same lines and more regarding your second point, there are different kinds of Christian communities. I believe that unrepentant homosexuals, as you put it, should not be allowed, for example, to be in the Church. There's precedent in Paul for putting unrepentant sinners out of the Church itself. There are, however, other cases where Christians certainly ought to reach out; how else will they hear? But where does Biola fall? I'm not really sure, but the fact that we require students and faculty to be professing believers in Christ leads me to think that we ought not to allow unrepentant sinners of any kind here. REPENTANT sinners, sure, but unrepentant ones? If they know the truth and don't want to change, I'm not sure they belong here in the first place.

    Finally, regarding your question to me: How do we hate sin and still love people? I don't exactly know. I'm still working on that. I know it has to involve separating the sin from the sinner. We act out of our innermost beings, yet we are still not what we do. I thank God that I'm not what I do, or there would be no hope for me. The same must be said for those who struggle with homosexuality, but it is so hard when the homosexual community as a whole tries to identify itself with its homosexuality. It seems like identifying myself with my pride, and then getting hurt or angry or feeling cast out when people call pride a sin.

    I don't know if I really know what to do with this, but those are some of my thoughts on the issue. May 10, 2012

  84. Anonymous

    To be honest if this were to be a secular university in the terms of a non christian community then this topic would be understandable to converse about. However,knowing that students from all over the nation come to this campus expecting this to be a predominately christian school, this school should focus primarily on the foundations of the christian doctrine! They should NOT support this group and make it clear to the student body that although this is an ongoing sin and can be forgiven by God, ITS STILL WRONG. I will not support this and neither will most of this campus. It is clear that there is some definite spiritual warfare going on in this campus and we should do something about it. May 10, 2012

  85. Brosef Ballin

    First off, to the supporters of the enterprising individuals behind this little brouhaha, would it make any difference to you if the students were attempting to have their viewpoint legitimized as opposed to radically seeking help from their Christian brothers and sisters? To me it would seem that it should make a ton of difference, as on one hand we could sympathize with, and offer help to those who need it in the spirit of Christ himself. While on the other hand we might need to bring a little righteous indignation to the proceedings, especially as the word of God appears to be particularly clear here.
    Second off, the treatment of Cary has been beyond abominable. Those responsible should be ashamed and should apologize, to react that way to a fellow brother in Christ is by no means acceptable behavior for Christians. Am I right here? It would seem that the old adage is right, in so far as it refers to those who think a witty one liner is a substitute for an argument: "When all else fails in an argument, correct their grammar." You guys can do better, much better.
    Lastly, what is this whole ish about "having a conversation"??? Is everything up for discussion now? Are there no points we as Christians can agree on? Are there no bedrock moral principles of scripture? Must the bible be reexamined every few years to fit the evolving ideology of dolts seeking to coerce and twist it's word to fit their lifestyles? I use the word "dolt" not as a description of derision but a comment on the idiocy of changing scripture to suit one's desires. May 10, 2012

  86. Aaron

    As long as we're on the topic of Christian gender roles, why don't we fight against the church's acceptance of women who worship with their heads uncovered? Paul is as authoritative on this issue as he is on homosexual behavior. And while we're at it, we can get those darn women to stop speaking in church as well! I mean, come on, let's at least be consistent.

    ...or perhaps we could stop acting like interpretation of minor biblical passages is always clear and simple. May 10, 2012

  87. Richard

    Hey my name is Richard I've gone to Biola for a couple of years and I love it. I actually struggle with same sex attraction and it really sucks. I actually gone through a lot of heartache recently because my friend told me that he wasn't going to help me with this issue anymore because he was afraid that he couldn't get married. That broke my heart and spirit. The statistics that the site put up are true when it comes to depression and suicide because I'm currently going through that. I think a group like this whether right or wrong has to exist until the students at Biola are ready to sacrifice and help carry this really huge burden. If not these people are going to depend on each other for help even though it is wrong. The most frustrating thing for me is how so many students are worried about who they are going to Merry instead of who they are going to help. Until Biola students stop thinking about their future spouses or stop stressing about that, then this group has no reason to say Biola is not accepting but as of right now even in my experiences I was rejected the love and time I needed from my friend because he feared he couldn't get married. May 10, 2012

  88. Richard

    And sorry I wrote this from my phone so there are some typos. May 10, 2012

  89. Aaron

    Something I think generally worth noting: the Biola Underground members do not believe they are living in sin. I can guarantee you, they have studied the biblical passages concerning homosexuality a hell of a lot longer and with more interest than pretty much anyone who condemns them. They have studied, and they have, in their minds, found ways of reconciling their sexuality with their faith, in the same way that any other seeming contradiction in the Bible is resolved through theological study. If they were knowingly living in sin, then yes, we could say without a doubt that is clearly condemned by the Bible. But that is not the case. They are rationally convinced that they are not sinning. If they are wrong (and they are certainly aware of their fallibility, as we all should be), then let God convince them otherwise. Because again I can guarantee you, they have heard your simple arguments a thousand times before and they were clearly not satisfied. May 10, 2012

  90. Paul of Tarsus

    I am not Paul of Tarsus.
    But it is quite clear in almost every letter written by Paul what out stance as a Christian community should be on this issue. If you don't know what it is, then I would suggest reading the New Testament. (Though if you do, then I would also suggest reading the New Testament just because it is good reading [as well as the rest of the Bible...])

    But also, as said time and time again by the many previous commenters, what about love? As a Christian community, we are called to be a body of believers, correcting in love, building each other up, and becoming a united people of Christ. The point that is brought up by the BQUnderground is valid. And that point is that we should be a community that is open to discussion, not about the truth of whether homosexuality/L/G/B/T/Q actions are sins, but discussion about dealing with it and how to live and thrive while dealing with it. Like what Kris said, we need to be sensitive about the issue, (because it is indeed a sensitive issue) and we need to have compassion for those our brothers and sisters who are struggling in this.

    As a people of God, as peers, as friends, as a family, and as a witness to the testament of Christ, we should be the first to have ears for our peers. As a people of Christ, we should be the first to listen, hear, learn, then act. As a people who have taken the same Bible classes and have gone through the same material throughout our Biola careers, we should have the mindset that we are a community who loves and works within our community.

    Paul talks of the "do not's" in his letters, but more importantly he talks about the "do's." He talks of the importance of finding our identities in Christ, which is so easy to forget. As a people under the saving grace of Christ, we have our identities, not in our old self, but in Christ as his beloved child. Our identity is not in our sexual orientation or deeds, but it is in Christ. L/G/B/T/Q-ness is not you identity, and neither is being heterosexual. Your identity is in Christ. As a community, our identity is in the Body of Christ. And as a community, we should be a people with ears that hear the struggles of our own Body, not just homosexuality, but for all struggles of the Body. For we are a people united under Christ, and we best not forget that.

    The truth has been laid out clearly, now what will we do to live it out? May 10, 2012

  91. Josiah

    @John pot # 77

    I asked that question because we need a frame of respone and/or address. If they view that their is nothing wrong with Homosexuality, it should change the way we approach it from trying to help, to try to understand their point of view in a more intense fashion. Conversely, if they were questioning it, we must take a different approach. My intention of the question was to simply remind us all to keep an open mind and to not 'label' anyone intentionally. Thank you John for allowing me to expound upon it. I did not mean any offence to anyone. May 10, 2012

  92. Shelby

    Aaron, despite the fact I am sure these followers of the underground movement have in fact done some studying, you've made an incorrect assumption that they've done any more studying than a person with an opposing view. What about those of us with homosexual family members? Do you think that we've sat idly by as they've struggled with this issue? To say such a thing is offensive and ill informed. The opposing arguments are not "simple" and if you believe something strong enough, you won't be satisfied with an argument, but that does NOT mean we sit by. If I was about to get hit by a truck, I would desperately hope someone would tell me. Granted, the issue has been handled poorly in the past, but there is nothing wrong with maintaining a hold on truth while still approaching individuals with love. I'd also like to say I'm not equating homosexuality with being hit by a truck, it's just a metaphor. If I truly believe practicing homosexuality to be biblically incorrect, I find my self responsible to helping others see this as well. May 10, 2012

  93. Aaron

    Thank you, Shelby. Note that I wrote "pretty much anyone" - I was anticipating something like your response, and so I left room for special cases such as yours. As for the simplicity of arguments, I was referring to the common practice of throwing out the handful of direct biblical references to homosexuality and expecting that to be a satisfying end to the argument. Again, I will say: pretty much everyone is willing to dismiss as "merely cultural" many of the gender-role instructions found in the New Testament (women's head coverings, etc.), and yet that possibility is never entertained when homosexuality comes up. We're being inconsistent. May 10, 2012

  94. Ben Koppin Class of 2011

    @ Richard

    First off, find me on facebook and lets be friends (I'm serious). I'm already married so you don't have to worry about that! LOL!

    The Holy Spirit has really been witnessing to me through this song lately as this whole discussion popped up.

    Underoath "Some Will Seek Forgiveness, Others Escape"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8S57IFNDQ0

    I'm just a sinful man giving his sinful two cents. I think just how this song illustrates at the foot of the cross we are ALL unable to have a relationship with God on our own. We are all equal in that sense and we have been given the same grace to accept.

    1 Timothy 1:15
    "Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners —of whom I am the worst"

    I feel like as Christians we should all have the same humility as Paul seeing through the eyes of the gospel we are all "the worst" in the sense that we have all fallen short. From there is were an amazing discussion can start, in my opinion.

    I honestly have never looked at the original greek or hebrew for the word homosexual and how it translates to the current english Bibles we have now. I would love to hear a chapel or article from one of the Bible profs breaking that down for me (I'm not saying that the Bible isn't God breathed or anything like that. I just have heard stories about how words can get mixed up in translation). I think this would be beneficial to all the students at Biola, to know that the context communicates over to today's homosexual relationship.

    This is just a sinner's saved by grace's thoughts. Either way Richard, connect with me someway and lets be friends. Christ loves you and died for sinners like you and me for all our sins. He wants you to live in the freedom of his grace, not kill/hurt yourself. He loves you so much he died for you, you are beautiful to him warts and all!! (believe me....I got some big warts!)

    This may be goofy but we are the "little ones"! LOL!

    "Jesus loves me! This I know,
    For the Bible tells me so;
    Little ones to Him belong,
    They are weak but He is strong.
    Yes, Jesus loves me!
    Yes, Jesus loves me!
    Yes, Jesus loves me!
    The Bible tells me so." May 10, 2012

  95. Marie

    I agree with Sean (comment 82); typically arguments online are not ideal. As one of the many who have graduated and are far away, I have been thankful to read at least some of the dialogue is online.

    Thanks, Chimes, for covering this difficult issue and please continue to do so as the conversation progresses.

    Thank you all for your grace and honesty when discussing with one another. My hope is that open conversation may continue in a gracious and loving manner.

    That being said, since I am not able to be face-to-face with anyone in this conversation, I would like to add a question of my own. (Sorry Sean, although I agree with you, I couldn't resist.)

    We keep classifying the whole issue under the LGBTQ (Lesbian/ Gay/ Bisexual/ Transgendered/ and Questioning) but it seems that we are solely discussing the parts of the issue that deal with LGBQ lifestyles. Are we assuming the transgendered people are the same as the others? What about the Biblical implications of our arguments? Do they apply to transgendered people as well?

    May 10, 2012

  96. Trevor

    I love how people cowardly hide behind their words and try to pawn them off on God. "The Bible unambiguously says X!" Whatever. The Bible says all kinds of things, most of which are completely disregarded, irrelevant, or, of course, let's not forget the most convenient one, "fulfilled". May 10, 2012

  97. Richie Conway

    Hey Richard,

    I'm so glad I read to the bottom and saw what you wrote before commenting on here. I feel for your burden and struggle, and totally want to let you know that you aren't alone in feeling secluded! People that struggle with homosexual tendencies aren't the only ones that feel cut off. I came from a non-christian home, converted (or started to convert) at 17, and it's been a bump ride since then. I came from some deep sins and struggles (sex, drugs, etc) that I have only been able to fight off due to my brothers and sisters in Christ being there with me to fight the good fight together.

    Needless to say, when I first transferred to Biola I expected it to be a place of openness and love where people could come share their burdens and be honest about their burdens without feeling ostracized or looked down upon, and that's not the environment I found (not in the majority of the environment but in some people I found the love and support!). Probably because a lot of the people haven't struggled in the same sense and were raised in Christian homes so they couldn't relate. Needless to say, the feeling of having to hide myself and my testimony of where God took me from and took me to, pushed me towards my sin again. The first semester was a struggle. By the end I made a decision to change and haven't looked back. I still struggle in some ways but God changes me daily, and a lot of it is because I found people that I could open on and walk with together, that I could share my burden with and by doing so be relieved of it.

    So yes... Biola can use this discussion. Not as a means to change the theological view of the matter, but as a means for people to be able to speak openly about their struggles and love one another. Not just with homosexuality but drugs, sex and everything else!

    I love you brother, although I don't know you. Feel free to look me up on facebook if you need any additional friends in the fight.

    -Richie May 10, 2012

  98. Five Steps.


    1. Read the Scripture to know if sexual immorality / homosexuality is a sin or not. (It is: 1 Cor 6:9-11) simple as that.

    2. What do we do with sin? We repent and keep our eyes fixed on Christ so that when temptation comes we find the strength the Holy Spirit enables within us to resist that temptation. (See #4 and 5 if you are struggling with temptation)

    3. When we fix our eyes on Christ, the Holy Spirit enables us to love and keep the law, and to grow in the fruits of the Spirit.

    4. If you are struggling with temptation and need guidance or advice, just like any other sin that is not approved by Scripture therefore not approved by Biola's community standards, then seek advice and guidance from a professional on campus.

    5. Get personal help. Do not hide anonymously behind a computer screen looking for answers or advice from a lot of very opinionated people you do not know. Get advice and answers from people who know the answers and advice found in Scripture. Scripture is the key.

    Thank you Lord for our brothers and sisters and Your Truth you have revealed to us in Scripture. Remind us of your grace so that we may be gracious.
    May 10, 2012

  99. Richie Conway

    To those that are saying that theology changes with times...

    That seems pretty counter-scripture. Have we forgotten the aspect of scripture being complete?

    Merely because people have prayed over it and "felt" it as good doesn't mean that's the case. Otherwise who are we to say that mormonism or some other non-christian ideology is false? Remember, we are to worship in spirit and truth- they should match.

    And also, this idea of reinterpreting scripture is such a legalistic way of looking at scripture. Literally it's like something you would see in a courtroom, but doesn't preserve the "spirit of the law." This way of interpreting it is a modern, very modern phenomena that is a way of twisting the word to meet the times. It's a way of justifying living in the world and of the world, not living in but not of.

    Let's not lie to ourselves, or even worse lead others on a wrong path. Let's love and be full of spirit, but not forget to be full of truth. May 10, 2012

  100. Trent

    Richard, thanks for sharing, man. My heart goes out to you because I know the struggle. It seriously sucks. You feel absolutely hopeless sometimes, dirty, and unloved. I know a lot of people that struggle with it who, if given the choice, would simply become "normal." It can be a life long battle against your "natural" sexual reaction and you weren't meant to go through this alone.

    However... iron best sharpens iron when one iron is strong and the other blunt. The community you need is a Godly mentor who can pray with you through the struggles, listen to your confession, encourage you toward holiness, affirm your victories, remind you of your true indentity, and shoulder the pain with you grow in holiness. Reach out to your local church or counseling at Biola. There are absolutely incredible people who will walk with you through this and will be a much healthier influence than your peers who struggle in the same way.

    Know that the God who created you knows you intimately, Richard. He loves you more than you could ever know. He is the PERFECT father. He did not create you to be in direct conflict with his word.

    I sincerely believe the issue of homosexuality is most often a deep, aching emotional issue which represents itself sexually. Be it emotional, physical, or sexual abuse (and often an estranged father), God WILL heal the broken parts of your heart sand restores you to the beautiful intimacy he longs to share with you.

    You may or may not "turn straight" in the process. The deeper you've invested into the lifestyle, the tougher it will be to get out. BUT... fight against the lie that you HAVE to be married with 2.5 kids and a white picket fence. Don't forget Paul said that he would rather many would NOT be married and focus on serving the Lord. haha. (Not to minimize the blessing of marriage, of course). You likely have a heightened sense of love and caring that so many other men are afraid to express- the world needs you and your story. Living a life of total abandon for Jesus is so much greater, more exciting, more fulfilling, and more pleasurable than anything the world has to offer in contrast with His Word.

    Stay strong, kill sin with the power of the Spirit, and love the Lord passionately with every part of your heart. From the bruises cry out "Abba, Father" and pray for healing of every hurt.

    He knows you. He hears you. He loves you. May 10, 2012

  101. Jack Nobody

    Oh look, 100 comments, oops not anymore...

    The last comment is actually one of the best on this page. I do not think that this is infiltration, as Carey said. I think this is people who are saying "hello, we exist whether you ignore us or not" May 10, 2012

  102. Richard

    Thanks Ben and richie, I have great friends that are there for me as I struggle through this but it's super tough. Its a cery complex issue. I'm at a place right now where I feel like I need to make a choice to be gay or not as of right now, I'm a bitter and hateful towards certain Christians for the pain i have to go through for the ignorant garbage crap they have said and have done, and I'm not going to hide this but bible majors where the worst. They are still people I love but their narrow view that theology solves everything is crap. I've gone through a lot of healing already so I am very open but I am also really hurt for what my best friend did as well as what other Christians have done. Rejection is the first word that comes I me when I think about this. But I still have other godly friends helping me. I really want to meet these underground people, I emailed them and gave them my phone number so I'm waiting, but I do feel their sense of rejection because of my experiences, I feel bad for them. But I think they are missing some phychology truth that actually justifies their "same sex needs". I've met with many professors that know about me and so I have learned a lot. But despite all of this thy one particular hurt from my best friends drives me to be gay and so it's tough, and again I'm writing from my phone lol sorry for my poor grammar I'm a bad writer May 10, 2012

  103. Richard

    I also want to add the homosexual struggle is not one like masturbation or pornography it's different it's pure form is one of a huge emotional neediness. You guys dont think that you will easily be ready to help someone who struggles with that until you are willing to give up your life for them, I found myself feeling more shame about my neediness then my attraction towards men. Neediness is huge in this, but through live that neediness will go away I believe. Didn't Jesus live us when we were needy? May 10, 2012

  104. Richard

    Oops I mean to say through love this can be solved not the word live, my bad it's my phone. May 10, 2012

  105. Trent

    Richard, you hit it on the head. It is an emotional issue that is so deep that the only way many know how to express the need is sexually (or through adolesence, the need is sexualized).

    Healing came for me through finding strong, God-fearing men who could reaffirm my masculinity, impart the grace of God in my life, and pray for healing over my past. For you, that sounds like it may be sexual abuse (I may be totally off). Regardless, healing is there for you. If abuse is in your history, you may benefit from deliverance prayer and going through your memory to identify any entry points of spiritual oppression. Having this prayed over me and discovering those entry points (As well as naming those spiritual forces working against the Holy Spirit) broke so many chains in my life.

    Again, I'm not sure of your story, but do want to encourage you, as a fellow struggler, to seek after these things before trying to find help among others who struggle with the exact same thing and are often looking for the same answers and healing you are. This particular issue is so deeply woven into your being that it requires the wisdom of one older, wiser, and more sensitive to the spirit than yourself or your peers. There's hope, man. Seriously. I have experienced freedom these past 3 years I never knew I could have. Praying for you, bud. May 10, 2012

  106. Kris Yee (final post)

    This shall be my last post. I can't handle keeping up with this and, I don't know, doing my homework? Yeah. Doesn't work. Haha.

    Anyways...

    Cary: No, I am not a Universalist. I'm sorry that you don't get to "accuse me of a false theological viewpoint." Lots of people go to hell. I just want to do everything in the power of the Spirit through me to show just one person God's love in a way that brings them to a saving faith in Jesus, the Christ.

    Nathan: It was fun catching up at the pancake thing. I'll see you at graduation.

    Everyone else: If you'd like to talk about this, hit me up on the book of faces. I'm always down to talk and am even more down to listen. As far as this thread goes, I will revert to the first thing I posted and have it be my last...

    Don't be a douche. Listen to people. Love people. May 11, 2012

  107. Christine

    Richard and Trent, I was so encouraged by your willingness to be vulnerable and open on here!

    Debating what exactly the underground group wants will always garner a response, but it sometimes seems like activity without accomplishment. But I think the honest conversation you guys are engaging in is really what Biola should be doing. May 11, 2012

  108. Candice (Biola Almuni)

    I want the Biola Queer Underground to know that I both support and admire their movement. As well intended as Biola may aspire to be, the official stance taken on this topic is a discriminatory one. Stay strong Queers, fight on, and remember love is not a sin! May 11, 2012

  109. Arlin Edmondson

    Aaron,
    you made a critical error when you said:
    "pretty much everyone is willing to dismiss as "merely cultural" many of the gender-role instructions found in the New Testament (women's head coverings, etc.), and yet that possibility is never entertained when homosexuality comes up. We're being inconsistent."

    Homosexual behaviour was widely accepted and embraced in many facets of Greek society, cult-life, and in much of Roman society as well to varying degrees.

    Whereas Paul uses women's head coverings as a cultural example of a Biblical principle, an example that is not culturally present today;

    Paul's condemnation of homosexual practices was so counter cultural that it required him to lift the terminology in the Septuagint from Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 to form a word that simply expressed the idea of 'men and men in bed together'.

    Paul had a wide array of terms he could have used in 1 Timothy 10 and 1 Corinthians 6:9 if he wanted to talk about cult-prostitutes, pedophiles, or the like.

    There were many Greek words for these acts.
    The high-society Greeks really liked talking about such things.

    There was no Greek word for 'homosexual' behaviour itself.

    Yet Paul, counter culturally, invents one and uses it to condemn it.

    When the Bible speaks clearly against something that was acceptable in the culture it was written in, we should take note.

    Also, Aaron, we in the Reformed community are mostly Complementarians. We are far more 'consistent' regarding Paul's statements about women in ministry than other groups.

    However, even then, the arguments from the Egalitarian side are infinitely more capable, textual, and exegetically compelling than anything I have ever read arguing for Homosexuality, sex outside of marriage (the so called 'liberated christians'), or any other group that promotes immoral practices that the scripture very clearly condemns.


    May 11, 2012

  110. Anon Y. Mousse

    I would just like to point out that I just came out today to some of my closest friends.

    It's been THE hardest thing I've ever done... as of now.

    I was born and raised in a Christian family. Served in youth group, attended Vacation Bible School, was a worship leader/camp counselor/retreat staff, led mission trips, etc.

    My relationship with my parents are healthy AND my parents are still together. I have 2 younger brothers, one who's attending Biola.

    I love Jesus and am a believer. I don't know why I have these feelings but I believe they're with me for a reason.

    I am still a virgin (believe it or not) and have never dated/kissed/had a relationship with anyone (romantically) because of my struggles with homosexuality.

    I would like to have a long-lasting relationship, eventually be married, have kid (adopted or otherwise)... to someone. I am still wrestling with the idea of homosexuality being right or not in God's eyes because the Bible is not completely concrete in the issue.

    Yes, I went to Biola. Yes I've read the passages that fundamentalists/uber-conservative Christians constantly throw at to support their case against homosexuality (the couple verses in Romans, 1st Corinthians, and 1st Timothy, I'm not gonna touch upon the OT passages b/c they're usually in the same context as shellfish-eating being a sin and working on the Sabbath as an abomination worthy of death) and the Bible is not entirely black + white on the issue of consensual adults having loving same sex relationships.

    I'm not sure what the Biola Queer Underground's intentions are but...

    People need to LISTEN. Truly listen to our stories. There will be similarities. There will be differences. Some people chose to be gay because there was no one else who was willing to help them through their struggles. Others had great family/healthy male figures in their lives but STILL chose to be gay. Each story is unique. And please understand that even gays & lesbians can change their minds about their orientation... it can be a passing phase. But for someone like me... who's wrestled with it their ENTIRE LIFE? I'm 25. It's a part of me that I've suppressed for so, SO long because I didn't want to be hated, un-popular, or called a "fag." (even though it happened anyway do to my natural somewhat flamboyant behavior... sorry world, I'm a musical theater/dancer/artist)

    (Continued below:) May 11, 2012

  111. Anon Y. Mousse


    "Hate the sin, love the sinner?" (p.s. did you know that this is a quote from Gandhi?)... trust me I've heard it a million times.

    But regardless of how we became gay or if we still struggle with it...

    RARELY (i have yet to find it) is there a church (who's not Universalist/super-gay rights) that is willing to let us process through everything publicly. There's always places either pro-gay or anti-gay but never really a place for Christians in the middle, who are confused/etc to process out loud their experiences, hurts, struggles in this issue.

    It's tough. Like super crazy ridiculous tough. I feel like I have to hide a part of myself whether I'm with some of my Biola friends because no matter how friendly we are... You really never know how they're going to react.


    Thankfully I have a wonderful group of loving Christ-believing friends who have constantly met me where I was at, loving on me regardless... and if I didn't have that... Lord knows where I'd be.

    And you know what, if homosexuality ends up NOT being okay with the Lord... I'm okay w/ pulling an Apostle Paul and being celibate for the rest of my life... but as of now I'm coming to realize that it's more gray as i delve deeper into what the Bible says.

    I know I'm rambling... but the bottom line is...

    I'm not asking you to accept the homosexual lifestyle (please don't assume that all people in the gay community are promiscuous and do drugs). There ARE some of us that are virgins and don't plan on sleeping around with every hot dude we come across with.

    I'm only asking you to open your heart and truly listen to us and where we're coming from. That I didn't ask to be this way. And it sucks.

    Remember there's only 2 important commandments: Love God + love others. (Matthew 22:35-40)

    Love in Christ,

    A brother who's gay.

    P.S. To all those out there who love Christ and are LGBTQ. I love you guys. No matter what. Know that no matter how sound your arguments may be... even if you have legitimate evidence, etc... some believers will never accept us. I mean even now you have Christians who think Black/African Americans should not be in positions of power or women should not be senior pastors. Ignorance is everywhere and unfortunately people will believe what they want to believe. But know that you are loved. You are precious in the eyes of the Lord. Forreal.

    Email me: passionforlife86@gmail.com

    (sorry this whole bit sounds so scatterbrained) May 11, 2012

  112. Pavel ben Jacob, Class of '98

    Man has tried to assert his own view of what God should find acceptable worship ever since Cain made his ego centered offering of the fruit of his efforts to the Creator.

    In Isaiah 1:10-20, God offers to "have a dialog" with those in Israel who were going through the motions in their sacrifice, instead of approaching Him with an obedient heart.

    Hear the word of the LORD,
    You rulers of Sodom;
    Give ear to the instruction of our God,
    You people of Gomorrah.

    "What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?"
    Says the LORD.
    "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
    And the fat of fed cattle;
    And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.

    "When you come to appear before Me,
    Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?

    "Bring your worthless offerings no longer,
    Incense is an abomination to Me.
    New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies-
    I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.

    "I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,
    They have become a burden to Me;
    I am weary of bearing them.

    "So when you spread out your hands in prayer,
    I will hide My eyes from you;
    Yes, even though you multiply prayers,
    I will not listen.
    Your hands are covered with blood.

    "Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
    Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight.
    Cease to do evil,

    Learn to do good;
    Seek justice,
    Reprove the ruthless,
    Defend the orphan,
    Plead for the widow.

    "Come now, and let us reason together,"
    Says the LORD,
    "Though your sins are as scarlet,
    They will be as white as snow;
    Though they are red like crimson,
    They will be like wool.

    "If you consent and obey,
    You will eat the best of the land;

    "But if you refuse and rebel,
    You will be devoured by the sword."
    Truly, the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

    You may respond, "That's Old Testament; the Law. Christ fulfilled the requirements of the Law and now calls us to love one another."

    Yes, He did--and does! But Christ's expression of the Father's love through Jesus's redemptive sacrifice does not negate the brutal reality that the wicked will not be allowed to raise themselves in God's presence.

    Psalm 24:3-5

    Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place?

    He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

    He shall receive the blessing from the Lord, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

    Romans 12:1
    Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship.

    The push by the LGBT community to be granted a hearing--via an appeal to love and compassion--is nothing more than an attempt to guilt the Body of Christ into approving what the LORD of all creation has clearly rejected: The attempt to approach His presence on our terms, instead of His. May 11, 2012

  113. Pavel ben Jacob, Class of '98

    Note that God exhorts Israel to, "Seek justice, reprove the ruthless, defend the orphan, plead for the widow."

    Jesus's teaching wasn't God's first revelation of His heart for the downtrodden. But note that on the heels of that revelation, He calls them to "reason together" WITH HIM--to acknowledge their sin, and avail themselves of His path to absolution, not to offer their own.

    Truth is not ascertained through focus groups, discussion, or open dialog between "equals": Truth is revealed when Man allows God to expose the ugliness of his heart, and is realized when Man yields his will to God's.
    May 11, 2012

  114. A Saddened Biolian

    The thing that breaks my heart about this comment feed is the people saying that the LGBTQ community can't truly be a Christian, can't truly love god if they are living this lifestyle. I am not going to get into the argument of whether it is right or wrong, or how we should deal with it. I am, however, upset and offended that you would say they don't truly love God. You do not know their heart. God knows their Heart. If there heart is with God he will move in them. But you have no right to Judge whether or not they truly love God. May 11, 2012

  115. Jessica

    I read over half of these comments.

    So many opinions. Not what I want to talk about.

    However...the heatedness and the rude syntax of the words written sadden me a lot.

    It's hard to buy that as "love" when the words are delivered with an invisible barb.

    Be nice. And do talk about the real issues. But Please, be gentle about it.

    May 11, 2012

  116. Richard Edwards

    Dear Biola,
    To be clear, I am not one of you. I did not know of your existance until your name came up on John Shore's website, which I recomend to you. I have been impressed by the discussion in the above comments, you are not as closed off as I would have assumed.

    I only want to address the idea that activists have infiltrated your campus. No, there is no great conspiracy from the LGBT community to liberate Biola. We are fighting for our lives in other areas.

    These activists are your own children. They have sat with you in every class, awakened to their same-sex attractedness, and heard from your leaders how broken and unwanted by God they are. Every year there has been a Biola they have been there. Imagine how they have suffered.

    Suffered in silence. As they have reconciled their love of Christ and their unbrokenness they have quietly left you and gone to where they could form family and open friendships in LGBT enviornments. Or they have married members of the opposite sex in the Biola family and lived ungenuine lives until unbearale internal tormoil shattered these marriages.

    What has changed is that because of social media they are no longer isolated from each other and can connect with relative security. And they have become activists.

    They want what you want. To live in peace and to express who they are without fear. As an underground group they will probably be infiltrated and betrayed, then we shall see if a Pogram will follow. It will reveal much about Biola if it does. Or doesn't.

    For those who are struggling with those passages in the Bible which you think condemn same-sex relations, much has been argued about their validity. You can find these discussions and decide for yourself. Rather than engage in endless argument, let's just say that the meaning is clear, Same-sex relations are wrong.

    The Bible also comes down on the pro slavery side of the Slavery question. The Bible says it is ok to own people. On that moral question the Bible got it wrong. Maybe the Bible is also wrong about loving relations between Same-sex partners and those who condemn the same have been wrong as well.

    This is what your activists have awakened too. May 11, 2012

  117. Wendy

    I think, if people engaged in this important conversation choose to believe that homosexuality is a *choice* or a lifestyle one picks out like choosing an entree at a restaurant rather than a biological difference, then the entire conversation is moot. If you believe it is a sin, a temptation to be fought for the glory of God, you will never be able to accept LGBTQ folk as the unique and wondrously made people God designed them to be. Science tell us homosexuality is not a choice. It is in the DNA, placed tere by God. God tells us to love one another. End of discussion. May 11, 2012

  118. Tracy

    Biola should be reminded that it is part of the worldwide community of Christ's people, and it is not obvious to all of us that loving someone and being in relationship with someone of the same sex is against God's purposes. (And yes, we know the Bible.) See, for example, Jack Rogers, "The Bible and Homosexuality." Biola can remove itself from the larger conversation, but it can't pretend it doesn't exist. May 11, 2012

  119. Erik

    I want to weigh in, but I don't have the energy to respond.

    First off: thank you Sallie and the Chimes staff for reporting on this, you're helping there be dialogue at the very least. I look forward to there being more solid Christian leadership to direct this dialogue on campus because much of what is being said frankly saddens me and at times angers me. (but that is unrelated to my commendation to the Chimes, they're great)

    As for the topic at hand. Have you ever felt alone? Have you ever felt misunderstood? Have you ever dealt with something you just knew no one would accept you for if you told them about it?

    And have you, after feeling this, expressed confessed (expressed, articulated) this to a close friend hoping, just hoping for some love and respect, some empathy?

    I know I have. And I've experienced both sides of the coin: the misunderstanding and hurt and the love and acceptance.

    That is the issue here. The hurt and loneliness felt by this community that has just made themselves known. I am saddened when I think of my own thoughtless words and actions and those around me about this topic. We have done a terrible job in creating a loving, caring environment where sinners can come and be loved.

    By sinners I am talking bigger than homosexuality here, though in my theology that applies.

    Dr. Matt Jenson from the Torrey Honors Institute said that Christians have no business, no right to share the Gospel with homosexuals (or anyone really) unless they are prepared to treat them like family.

    We must engage them on this issue. That does not mean emphatically and anxiously stating over and over what we think about their sin. It means sitting down and listening to them.

    The great thing about truth is that it will always be truth. We don't have to be anxious about it becoming false one day. Truth frees us to love. It frees us to listen.

    It is not a terrible thing to let the Biola Underground speak. It is not a terrible thing to listen. It is not even a terrible thing to question our own understanding of the Scriptures on this issue.

    Why?

    Because Truth will always out. If the Bible really says "x" about something, then that will out. I think we are much too anxious about defending our beliefs. I think God, the sustaining God of the universe, the One who loves us deeply and knows us intimately, will protect Truth. We must hold on to it, dialogue about it, wonder why we believe it, and trust that God will keep it.

    Let's be considerably less anxious that we will lose our grasp on biblical truth and be considerably more concerned with showing Christ's Love to the down and out. Our conversations will taste strongly of Truth, I do not doubt that. I do not doubt that Biola will hold to what is true. May 11, 2012

  120. Erik

    (cont.)
    What I do doubt is this: will the people of Biola be able to speak with love and acceptance to these poor, lonely souls who have been hurt by us in the past.

    I see our sins as a community in this issue as pride, arrogance, and fear. And yes, we have sinned as well. I say "our" because God knows I'm one of the most guilty of these things.

    Let's let that go for a time. Let's talk. Truth will out. Hopefully love will preside. May 11, 2012

  121. Erik

    Also, thank you Trent, Richard, and "Anon E. Mousse." I would love to see Biola an environment where you all feel comfortable sharing.

    I agree with Biola's official conviction about this issue, but I am mortified at the way we as a community (and myself personally) have conversed about this issue. I don't know you guys, but in whatever capacity I can, I love you, and I pray that you feel the deep love of Christ that goes beyond our sexuality, fears, and shortcomings.

    God bless you guys.

    And God bless those of you who are deeply concerned about this issue. You may also feel misunderstood in this. I don't think those of you who are emphatically quoting scripture hate these people, I think you feel misunderstood. I know I do.

    But let's take the fear out of this conversation. God will keep us. May 11, 2012

  122. Branden

    @Wendy

    "Science tell us homosexuality is not a choice. It is in the DNA, placed tere by God."

    Would this be the same Science that gave us the Big Bang Theory, Macroevolution, and Ice-Age-turn-Global-Warming-now-Climate-Change? The scientific process is simply one of observation. Science can be wrong and it's wrong all the time. Also, genomics is a highly infantile science with much to prove. Just look at the studies that try to tell you what's healthy to eat. They change all the time. May 11, 2012

  123. Lindsay (Class of '03)

    Wow - the Chimes comments section has become the new bubbs...
    May 11, 2012

  124. Brian Forbes

    There seem to be 2 main arguments from the LGBT supporters.
    1. We don't obey the Bible in everything, so why should we draw the line at Homosexuality?
    2. Love is greater than purity.

    A1. Faithlessness isn't an excuse for more faithlessness. We should accept the Bible more, not less.
    A2. I read Revelation yesterday. I don't think God agrees. Evil gets cast into the lake of fire. Is that loving?

    Do we really want to convert people to a nominal form of Christianity? I think the Bible is clear what to do with sexually immoral Christians. (1 Cor. 5) If that makes them feel bad, and they permanently reject God for it, that's not on us. That's on the Apostle Paul and God. Living in fear of us and our rejection of them is clearly not obeying the command of Jesus.

    Mt. 10:28 "Don't be afraid of those who want to kill you. They can only kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

    One last thing about #1. Zech. 14 clearly shows that there will be at least some Mosaic law in our future. Enter through the narrow gate, my friends. Let Jesus be your Master. May 11, 2012

  125. John

    @Richard Edwards (comment 116)

    You said that it is clear that the Bible teaches that "same-sex relations are wrong". I commend you for seeing that. There are those who think that the Bible is unclear about the issue when a good reading of it shows it's clarity on the topic. The Bible does say unambiguously that homosexuality is wrong.

    However you also claimed that the Bible got slavery wrong by condoning it and therefore could also be wrong on the topic of homosexuality. This is false.

    The Bible didn't get slavery wrong. What's wrong is your equivocation of the term "slavery". You use it ambiguously and quite anachronistically. I'm assuming that when you say "slavery", what you have in your mind is the inhumane treatment of the Blacks. However, if you study the Old Testament, "slaves" had rights. They were protected and they were not to be mistreated and there were provisions for them to be free. The slavery that you think of is not the same slavery in the Old Testament. Slaves back then, were not slaves in the modern sense of the word, they were indentured servants and those whom they served were commanded to treat them with human dignity.

    Therefore your claim that the Bible got slavery wrong is false. In fact, since the concept of slavery existed in ancient times, the Bible got it right by making sure that they were protected and not treated harshly and had the provision for freedom.

    In regards to your comment about those responsible for this underground group. They don't have to be pre-sanctioned by the LGBT community. The problem is that they, sanctioned or not, are subversively pushing the LGBT agenda here at our community when they fully knew what Biola's policies are when they got admitted, it being a conservative Christian private university. We all had to sign a standards document. There's no need for tinfoil hats. May 11, 2012

  126. Elizabeth Sallie

    Just to clarify, someone assumed the name "Chimes Administrator" and said it was end of discussion.

    That comment has now been deleted. In no way do we as The Chimes want the conversation to end.

    I've been blessed by the many exhortations to be gracious in this discussion, and the discussion will continue as long as this sort of respectful attitude continues.

    More information will be coming today to hopefully further our understanding of the situation, as well as the dialogue it's producing.

    All for Jesus,
    --elizabeth sallie | editor-in-chief May 11, 2012

  127. Khainiwest

    You sound like a bunch of sheltered neanderthal's. If this is what "God" represents I'll have no part in attacking someone's biological anatomy. Seriously guy's, you're truely a HUGE dissapointment to our current generation and only hinder progression.

    Your cult of hypocrisy is such a handicap to our culture. May 11, 2012

  128. Arlin Edmondson

    Anon Mousse:

    Have you actually read Leviticus 18, 19, and 20?

    You say:

    "I'm not gonna touch upon the OT passages b/c they're usually in the same context as shellfish-eating being a sin and working on the Sabbath as an abomination worthy of death"

    Did you know that the condemnation of homosexual behaviour in Leviticus 18 and 20 are in the same context as Leviticus 19 where we find: 'Love your Neighbor as yourself'?

    Did you know that Leviticus 19:33-34 says:“When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself"?

    It is also in the context of caring for the poor and the needy, respecting your elders, using just scales, and the like which is all commanded BETWEEN the sexual codes.

    Did you know this?

    That is in the context of the sexual morality codes of Leviticus which are condemning such things as adultery and bestiality?
    Did you know that?

    It is also in the context of condemnations of idolatry: you shall not sacrifice your children to Molech. Did you know that?

    Anon, are adultery and bestiality now ok, is sacrificing to Molech is now ok, and we should not love our neighbors as ourselves. May 11, 2012

  129. John

    INSULT ALERT! (comment 127) May 11, 2012

  130. Arlin Edmondson

    "I'll have no part in attacking someone's biological anatomy."

    Oh!

    So, you support the Biola University
    Statement on Human Sexuality, then?
    May 11, 2012

  131. John

    @Arlin, please don't respond to the trolls.

    @Chimes, please delete trollish post #127 and the subsequent posts about it. Thank you. May 11, 2012

  132. Arlin Edmondson

    John,
    you have mistaken my trolling of the trolls for a response to the trolls. =P



    May 11, 2012

  133. John

    @Arlin

    It doesn't help progress the conversation. Please refrain. May 11, 2012

  134. John M. Proffer

    I will never understand why people refuse to acknowledge that one can be both LGBTQ and Christian. I am a transgendered pansexual and Christianity is a large part of my belief system. I have a pretty deep relationship with God and I have pretty deep relationships with men, women, and others. Love is love, no matter where it is directed. For further debate in this, please email me at fantasynerd10125@yahoo.com. If you feel the need to reach out to someone else, please feel free to contact me as well. May 11, 2012

  135. Arlin Edmondson

    John Proffer says:
    "I will never understand why people refuse to acknowledge that one can be both LGBTQ and Christian."

    Because one can not rejoice in their sin and be a Christian.

    "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
    (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)

    Notice the final phrase:
    "And such were some of you."

    If a person identifies themselves as 'homosexual' in the sense that they engage in that sin willfully and unrepentantly,
    they can not be a Christian.

    But: If one identifies himself as 'homosexual' in the sense that he is in war with his own sinful tendencies that happen to be manifest in this way:
    "By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything."
    (1 John 3:19-20 ESV)

    And:
    "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments."
    (1 John 2:1-3 ESV)


    Yet you say:
    "Love is love,
    no matter where it is directed."

    Biblical Love is the concern for the best interest of another over your own.
    It is primarily action oriented.

    You have feelings of 'affection', not 'love'.

    If you loved the other,
    you would not want to engage them in your sin.

    You would want to warn them away from sin.

    For:
    "In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins."
    (1 John 4:9-10 ESV)

    Yet you say:
    "I have a pretty deep relationship with God"

    Really?
    "Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked."
    (1 John 2:4-6 ESV)
    May 11, 2012

  136. Richard

    Man, I wish I knew who these underground people where. Like i have said in my previous comments, I struggle with homosexuality, but I was never in an environment where I couldn't talk about it. Most of my friends at Biola know what I struggle with and they treated me the same for the most part. I think they are causing more harm for the ones that have this struggle that are trying to figure out what to do. I wish they wouldn't say things like "we speak for you" because they don't even know me or know others that have experienced amazing love. But i don't want to deny their experiences of rejection because there are Biola students that do reject, make fun of, and are hostile, and the worse when they tell you to give it too God. Iv'e been trying to give it to God since I was 6. He hasnt taken it away. lol Please Biola underground watch what you say, you don't represent all homosexuals at Biola. May 11, 2012

  137. John M. Proffer

    Nope, I am pretty sure it is love, not mere affection.
    Rebuttal: The bible has been proven to be wrong in quite a few circumstances. Slavery, the easiest moral question of all, is gotten wrong by the bible. Why not something as big as one's sexual orientation of gender identity? Why the hell would I tell someone that I love and who loves me in return that we can't love each other anymore? Should I then swear off any attempt at love, any attempt at seeking out a relationship in which love is mutual? I shouldn't hold hands with someone I love or engage in other acts designed to show love? I can't imagine God, a being of love, saying "Yes, you love, your love is wrong, you're going to hell because you dared to love!" I am more prepared to believe God will damn those who preach intolerance and hate than those who love.
    May 11, 2012

  138. John

    @Richard (comment 136)

    Brother, I feel for you. I can't imagine how heavy that weight must be on your shoulders. I'm very sorry for the hurt that some here at Biola may have caused you. It's a very difficult situation and there are those who don't understand. I took a couple of minutes right now to pray for you. I pray that God will bring godly men and women who will be able to come alongside you and encourage you and help you. Have you tried getting counsel from the counseling center or student development? I think they provide these types of services. May 11, 2012

  139. John

    @John M. Proffer

    Please see my post #125 regarding slavery and the Bible. May 11, 2012

  140. Richard

    Yea, I have. im still going through some stuff, so we will see what happens. I think it will be really cool to have a panel of students who struggle with homosexuality and have experienced great love from the Biola community, some professors and administration, and the underground biola students meet in the gym and have a discussion. That will be sooooo cooool. May 11, 2012

  141. Arlin Edmondson


    "Rebuttal: The bible has been proven to be wrong in quite a few circumstances."

    I am uncertain how one can claim they have a 'deep' relationship with 'God' and are a 'christian', yet reject the Word of God revealed by Jesus himself.

    "Why not something as big as one's sexual orientation of gender identity"
    If you want to say Jesus and His apostles were wrong, do not call yourself a Christian.

    "Slavery, the easiest moral question of all, is gotten wrong by the bible."

    A man is starving to death and has 3 children to support.

    He can sell two of his kids to a better off family friend as workers and thus provide for his family - and provide for his two children.

    What should he do?

    That is the kind of 'slavery' primarily talked about in the Old Testament.
    Bond-servanthood.

    In the New Testament, Paul told Philemon to treat his slave Onesimus as his brother in Christ because Philemon, himself, is a slave to God.

    That undermines the sort of slavery that wicked Americans and Europeans engaged in - and butchered and mangled the scriptures to prop up some sort of support.

    "Why the hell would I tell someone that I love and who loves me in return that we can't love each other anymore?"

    Because you say you love them and would not want them to be in sin.

    If you truly 'love' them,
    you would not want them to sin.

    Do you love them?
    May 11, 2012

  142. John

    I don't want to be confused with John M. Proffer, so from now, on, I'll be John K.S. May 11, 2012

  143. John M. Proffer

    @John
    I read your post
    I think you are wrong; the truly moral thing to do would be to end the subjugation of other human beings, even if this subjugation has some protections, it is still wrong. It is never right to hold ownership of another human being.
    Secondly, there is no bloody lgbtq agenda. That is a load of crap designed to dehumanize other people. You're welcome to join us, but nobody is forcing you. May 11, 2012

  144. John K.S.

    @Richard,

    That is good to hear. I'm very glad. The Bible tells us in 1 Cor 10:13 that:

    "No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it."

    Also in 2 Cor 1:3-4 it says:

    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God."

    God is faithul, Richard. He has a purpose for your struggles. It's not for you to give in to it. But for you to grow and overcome, and comfort and minister to others who go through the same thing. May the Lord draw you closer to Him in this season of your life. May 11, 2012

  145. John M. Proffer

    @Arlin
    So essentially you are telling me to live a loveless life lacking human companionship and contact. Wow, yes, that sounds like a wonderful idea; in fact, I'll go completely remove myself from society now. <sarcasm alert>.
    Being Christian does not necessarily require a person to give up the ability to think and realize that something is wrong. It does not require a person to close their minds and become an idiot, accepting only what is in a book when empirical data indicates that portions of it are incorrect. It is still wrong to own another human being, denying this other person free will. Would you sell one of your children? How would you feel if you did this? If you said you were willing, I would like to ask you never to have children. May 11, 2012

  146. Arlin Edmondson

    Richard, (136)

    My heart goes out to you.

    I also echo John's statement in post 138.

    "Most of my friends at Biola know what I struggle with and they treated me the same for the most part."

    I am glad that you have found those who will support you.

    "But i don't want to deny their experiences of rejection because there are Biola students that do reject, make fun of, and are hostile"

    This has no place within a Christian community. I am sorry there are students who do these things.

    I have to wonder if they are not hiding the shame of their own sin in their hostility.

    "when they tell you to give it to God."

    No need, he has already taken it upon himself on that tree - and is sanctifying all who believe, through the ministry of the Spirit.

    Our job is to be fighting and killing our sin; he has already taken the shame and the wrath on the cross.

    "By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything."
    (1 John 3:19-20 ESV) May 11, 2012

  147. Richie Conway

    Hi John M. Proffer,

    I think the issue on the bible getting slavery wrong was already addressed that it isn't true by john in comment 125.

    The problem with your comment is that we don't define love- God defines love. He isn't love by your definition or someone elses, but by his. And we too are to define love by how He defines love. I'm sure we can agree, without pointing out blatantly obvious twisted versions of love, that there are some people that say they love something, without it actually being love, and instead it just being sin. May 11, 2012

  148. Richard

    lol yea thanks man, I went through most of the scriptures and stuff since I was 10 lol. Ive heard both sides for a long time. My main concern is that these people in the underground are hurting, and I want to know if they have really been given the chance to be loved. And not in a general way, like I accept you and stuff like that, what homosexuals want are very specific needs and since most christians do not know about that they respond with love but the actions are wrong and cause damage. I want very specific things that includes a lot of touch and other awkward things that the average christian male might find weird and even sinful sometimes, so i had to explain to a lot of my male friends what I needed. and i wasnt justifying any sin. I think what I wanted was actually biblical and professors, biola therapist, and friends agreed that what I wanted was healthy in the sense of my growing from this struggle. Im still walking in the dark place, luckily Jesus walked through this first. It makes me think of him and the rejection and stuff he went through from us sinful humans and the rejection from the Heavily Father. May 11, 2012

  149. Arlin Edmondson

    @JOHN PROFFER
    "So essentially you are telling me to live a loveless life lacking human companionship and contact."
    No, that is not what I said at all.

    I said that true love will force you to refuse sin.

    If you are not interested in an honest exchange, why are you here?

    "Being Christian does not necessarily require a person to give up the ability to think and realize that something is wrong."
    Au contraire, the scripture gives the Christian the resources to be ever shaping his thoughts into those of the God who saved Him.

    If you reject the Bible as suited for such instruction,
    you are not a Christian.
    You have invented your own religion.

    "It does not require a person to close their minds and become an idiot, accepting only what is in a book when empirical data indicates that portions of it are incorrect."
    Then reject the book and don't call yourself a 'Christian' when you believe Jesus and His revelation is filled with significant error.

    "Would you sell one of your children? How would you feel if you did this? If you said you were willing, I would like to ask you never to have children."

    If my family and my children were starving, and I was living in a society that doesn't have the affluence we have in ours and the safety nets.

    If the only way for me to save the life of my child was to sell my child into bond-service to someone I knew and could trust, I would do so.

    Would you let your child starve instead?

    If you would let your child starve,
    maybe you are the one who should avoid having children? May 11, 2012

  150. John M. Proffer

    I apologize for this, but I cannot stand by while someone defends the ability to have ownership over another human being. It was addressed from one side, and everyone assumed that argument over. Last I checked, that is a monologue in response to a monologue, not a dialogue or a debate. I also cannot agree with you on your bit on love right there. Love is love. If you choose to recognize being lgbtq as a sin, then riddle me this.
    By virtue of being a sin, what other sin allows for the spread of love. What other sins hurt no living creature? May 11, 2012

  151. John M. Proffer

    What other recourse would you have me do then? There are two choices there; living with no human companionship or accepting who I am. Not really a hard choice. As I said up there, Christianity is only a part of my philosophy. It is comprised of freethinking, Wiccan, and Christianity in a Universal Unitarian manner. Your very argument states that things are different now. We live in a nation of more wealth and more knowledge than has ever been. Does that not whisper that perhaps other things are different now as well? May 11, 2012

  152. Jennie

    I appreciated the honesty of those struggling with homosexuality. I neither condone nor condemn the Underground because I don't know enough about it. I grew up in the church and went to Christian schools nearly all of my life. I was taught the intolerance of homosexuality just as most of us are in the Christian community and I had zero contact with homosexuals for most of my life. Hating is easy when you've never walked a mile their shoes.

    Now I am 30. I have worked with gay people, studied under at least two gay professors, and I have gone to school with gay people. My cousin has a gay brother-in-law that regularly attends family functions with his partner. I have gay friends. Shockingly, gay people are no different than straight people. They have the same hopes, fears, hurts (extra hurt), and capacity to love. You may call my acceptance wordly; I call it loving others.

    Tolerance and acceptance of people is not the same as approval of their actions. Be tolerant in that you still accept them as they are at your dinner table instead of shunning them to "fix" themselves before they can enter the church.

    Many of you seem to want to waive around Bible verses and crosses like LGBT are vampires you need to keep away. The best thing for struggling homosexuals is for them to have an outlet to come together and talk about reconciling their faith with their innate desires--because I do believe it's biological and not a choice (though I also believe it can be controlled like other sinful urges). Talking to some pastor that has been married for 30 years probably doesn't help the struggling college student that feels no one understands him or her. Programs like AA work because everyone is going through the same trials and they can support each other. I recognize that I don't have the skill set to properly support a struggling LGBT person. (Just like I don't think our married pastors should be running the singles ministry and talking about dating when they haven't had a new date in decades.)

    I got married young and divorced in my mid-20's. No one could relate to this experience because divorce is so unusual at that age. It would have been helpful for me to have somewhere to go. That's why I think it would be helpful for this LGBT group to meet and commiserate with others that understand them.

    The LGBT community is a community because they are widely ostracized. If we could find common ground instead of persecuting people for a sexual preference, maybe we could really find out what they need us to do to help them.

    Lastly, some of you mentioned infiltrators. Let's be honest--the cost of tuition will deter any hopeful infiltrators. :) May 11, 2012

  153. Arlin Edmondson

    Richard,

    Your post is encouraging to me.
    I hope Christ will lead you to peace even in this life, as he leads us to the eternal peace in the next.

    That said, I am very concerned that this 'protest' may result in the kind of people that harassed you giving more flak to others who struggle as you do.

    That must not be allowed to happen in this community.

    I hope that if it does happen, you and others will let those of us who want to protect 'bruised reeds' know about it.
    As well as the administration.

    Of Jesus the scripture says:
    “Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.
    (Matthew 12:18 ESV)

    a bruised reed he will not break,
    and a smoldering wick he will not quench, until he brings justice to victory; and in his name the Gentiles will hope.”
    (Matthew 12:20-21 ESV)

    -Arlin May 11, 2012

  154. John K.S.

    LOL. John M. Proffer (comment 151).

    You sir are an outsider and a troll. Please stop with the misrepresentation. Nobody here is trying to defend slavery. What we're responding to is your claim that the Bible got slavery wrong. We say your claim is false and gave reasons. And now you're saying we're defending slavery.

    Slavery was an established ancient practice. Neither God nor the Bible established it. What God did was establish parameters so that those who were "slaves" were not going to be mistreated. How can you say that the Bible got it wrong? May 11, 2012

  155. Arlin Edmondson

    Proffer said:
    "As I said up there, Christianity is only a part of my philosophy. It is comprised of freethinking, Wiccan, and Christianity in a Universal Unitarian manner."

    That is not Christianity whatsoever.

    It was dishonest of you to identify yourself as Christian when you are in fact a 'Wiccan' unitarian universalist.

    "Your very argument states that things are different now. We live in a nation of more wealth and more knowledge than has ever been. Does that not whisper that perhaps other things are different now as well?"

    You are right,
    circumstances are different.
    Many of the societal and cultural laws no longer apply to our society.

    The principles underneath them do still apply:
    Preserve life and care for the needy in your society. Do not take advantage of the downtrodden.
    May 11, 2012

  156. John M. Proffer

    It didn't say "Hey look, this is wrong; don't do it."
    This is one of the few black and white issues anywhere, being that it is impossible to take a middle ground.
    I am not trolling by the way. I am completely serious. May 11, 2012

  157. John M. Proffer

    Nowhere in those principles of caring for the needy and preserving life does it say that being lgbtq is wrong. I never did say I Was completely Christian though, and if I made it seem like that, well, that is the only part of my religion that applies here.
    Speaking of which, you got that somewhat wrong, Wiccan is actually the smallest part of my philosophy, drawing only the idea of An it harm none do as ye will, a much harder moral code to live by than the one given in the Bible. That is somewhat of a derailment though, if you want to exchange thoughts on religion as such, please email me as given above. May 11, 2012

  158. John M. Proffer

    Sorry for a triple post, but I figured this was a separate issue.

    This link was offered on the website created. I post it here again, and ask that you do some reading. http://johnshore.com/gays-xtianity/
    May 11, 2012

  159. Arlin Edmondson

    Proffer,
    "Nowhere in those principles of caring for the needy and preserving life does it say that being lgbtq is wrong."

    I was talking about laws regulating bond-servants.

    Homosexual behaviour is condemned under the principle of:

    "God made man male and female; therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be bound to a wife."

    Which likewise condemns adultery, fornication, bestiality, and every other sexual sin in existence.


    May 11, 2012

  160. YJ

    @JOHN M. PROFFER (Comment 151)

    "What other recourse would you have me do then? There are two choices there; living with no human companionship or accepting who I am. Not really a hard choice."

    Dear John M. Proffer,

    I'm so sorry to hear that this is the struggle that you have. It's actually understandable to me why you could choose the life that you have. Humans all have a deep need for love. If you feel that those are the only two choices available to you, of course you would choose to have companionship rather than to be alone.

    The Bible teaches us that God created humans in His image and made us to be relational. Therefore, we need love and acceptance. I hope that you will consider a third option to the ones you see, to allow the love of Christ and His companionship to fill the needs of your heart. For this is ultimately what we are created for and made to be. If any one of us tries to fill that hole in our heart with anything else, we will fall into what the Bible calls "idolatry" and that act will ultimately hurt us because nothing besides God can fill that hole. The same could be said for heterosexuals as homosexuals. If anything that is not God is what a person sees and uses to truly fulfill their deep needs, it is idolatry and will ultimately harm them. Only God's love will truly satisfy our deepest longings. And only when we know God's love will we know what true love is. So I hope you will consider that option as well and let God show you how much He loves you. For He truly loves you. May 11, 2012

  161. Brian

    The book by Jack Rogers, "The Bible and Homosexuality," is an incredible resource. He is a Presbyterian minister and holds a doctorate in Biblical Interpretation.

    The book walks through an extremely detailed exegetical analysis of all the scriptures that supposedly condemn homosexuality, and with extremely good hermeneutics, looking into cultural context and comparing with many related issues that the Church has already dealt with, shows exactly how the scriptures have been tragically misused to ostracize and falsely condemn so many people, loved by God, in our community.

    It's well worth reading. It may change your mind or it may not, but it is by far the best, most detailed theological analysis showing an alternative understanding of these scriptures that I've ever seen.


    Separately, I want to address those of you using "proof texts" to declare all homosexual relationships as sinful. Picking a verse and using it as a "proof text" without also providing its full context, historical and cultural background, etc. is a mis-use of scripture and is extremely dangerous. "Proof texting" is an extremely dangerous endeavor, and has potentially diabolical consequences. The Bible is not black and white, so don't pretend it is. Don't pretend you have the complete understanding of its meaning, lest in your overconfidence you stand as a barrier between God's children and his love.

    Specifically with the case of homosexuality, remember that there wasn't a word that translates directly into our english understanding of "homosexuality" or "homosexuals." It just didn't exist as a distinct concept in the minds of those in Biblical times in the way that we understand it today. In every single case, the translators who inserted words like these into the Biblical text did so without proper diligence, either intentionally or unintentionally codifying their own prejudices and assumptions into the Holy Scriptures, tainting them for future generations. May 11, 2012

  162. John M. Proffer

    God made male and female so as to perpetuate evolution. He is intelligent; he would know that two men or two women could not have a child. I am pretty certain we read way too much into the story of creation. May 11, 2012

  163. Brian Forbes

    It seems the last several posts said that scripture is wrong. The trouble is, we only know who Christ was because of scripture. He fought Satan off with scripture. Don't say that you're a Christian if you're going to say that scripture isn't useful for instruction.

    I'd rather be guilty on judgment day of believing and living my life according to scripture. May 11, 2012

  164. Rosario

    Mr. Proffer,
    The thing is, this conversation and the arguments made can really only make sense and be attributed to those who truly call themselves believers (those who have died to themselves and try to live in a way that is pleasing to the Lord, not by our own standards but by the word). Because of that, the things you argue may hold in a different forum where people aren't arguing the scripture for or against the "rightness" of homosexuality. I dont think you're a troll (or maybe I do, but I have no idea what it means lol), I just think you may be a bit misguided in the fact that your mere beliefs as to what a Christian is and is not is pretty much the complete opposite of the majority of the people on this comments section. I genuinely hope you find love. I hope you come to the TRUE saving knowledge of Christ but I also do hope you know that your arguments aren't really relevant here as they are not based on any sort of similar foundations that most of us are using as starting points. Love you! May 11, 2012

  165. Lindsay Airey

    Wow.. .as a former BIOLA alum (2004), I am so so encouraged, brought to tears even, in reading this. Good for you, Underground LGBTQ community. This needs to be dialogued more in the Christian community at large...it is something my husband and I have spent the past 5 years thinking through theologically as well as politically, socially, psychologically...be assured that there are many MANY Bible-believing followers of Jesus who stand in complete solidarity with you in your struggle to be recognized as full citizens of the kingdom of God just as you are, which I firmly believe the biblical story affirms.

    I am convinced this will be the civil rights issue of our time that we look back on as yet another example of the Church being behind the 8-ball on. So good for you for being in the trenches now, trying to open up dialogue and open up a future where all God's children, gay and straight, can commune together as equal and fully acceptable in God's sight.

    I also commend you for not giving up on the Christian community. We need you to speak prophetically and push us toward a more faithful vision of God's kingdom! Thank you for your courage. How can we help? May 11, 2012

  166. Arlin Edmondson

    Brian

    The book by Jack Rogers, "Jesus, the Bible, and Homosexuality," is simply a regurgitation of previous arguments made by proponents of homosexual behaviour for decades.

    All of these arguments have been thoroughly analyzed and refuted; the refutations of all of these arguments have been available in scholarly and popular works for decades.

    Regurgitation and repetition is not an argument.

    I suggest you read:
    "Same Sex Controversy, The: Defending and Clarifying the Bible's Message About Homosexuality" by White and Niell

    http://www.amazon.com/Same-Sex-Controversy-The-Homosexuality/dp/0764225243/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1336777762&sr=1-1
    May 11, 2012

  167. Brian Forbes

    You know, as much as I hate to have to state the obvious, people keep saying things that are (to me) obviously false.

    Sin is not defined by culture. It's not defined by what we feel in our hearts. It's not even defined by our interpretation of "love". Sin is defined by the Law. (Ro. 7:7, 1 John 3:4) Sin is disobedience. To say that God doesn't have an opinion on this is a lie like the one fed to Eve in the Garden.

    Is divorce sin? Henry VIII sure made it popular. Did he make it ok? I have a choice ad hominem for those who believe that.

    Is pedophilia evil? Remember how old Juliet (or Romeo and Juliet) was? It's in the text! Does our culture really define where marriage becomes ok? There's a scripture where God marries a girl who just finishes developing up top, if you get my meaning. (Ez. 16:7-8) If it's wrong, then God is evil. Marriage is the key here, not necessarily age or "love".

    Nudity: "Remove your veil, Take off the skirt, Uncover the thigh, Pass through the rivers. Your nakedness shall be uncovered, Yes, your shame will be seen" (Isa. 47:2-3)

    Sin is not defined by our feelings, guys. Sin is defined by God, and revealed through his dictates. We should be moving toward his principals, not away from them. Biola may seem conservative to a lgbt, but they have a long way to go.

    Mt. 5:20 "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

    To be honest, it doesn't really matter what you all think. What matters is what God thinks. Reject me, and make me move my outrageous perspectives into the closet. I'd rather have the mantel of the great men, like Noah and Elijah than to conform to the standards of this world.

    "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." (Ro. 12:2)

    And just to stem the flow of outrage from those who might see this, I agree that we're saved by grace. God's mercy is enough to cover any repentant sin, and probably most of our sins of ignorance, too. (Luke 23:34) May 11, 2012

  168. Arlin Edmondson

    One can not understand or receive Grace,
    if one does not first understand wrath, justice, and shame.

    We must have the Law to condemn us,
    in order to have the Gospel which saves us.

    May 11, 2012

  169. Anon Y Mousse

    @Jennie (#152) Thank you for your honesty and love. I can definitely hear in your words that you truly care for someone like me and are willing to listen to what I have to say. Would love to have a meaningful conversation with you and @Lindsey Airey (#165) as well :)

    @Arlin. I just want to let you know that your words so far - to me - are borderline attacking. You threw Bible verses at me without wanting to know how I came to this conclusion or the struggle it took to me coming out and deciding to be gay. Again, I would like to reiterate that i have NEVER acted out on any of my feelings, I am a complete virgin, and most of the things go on in my head... but reading what you've written so far... I don't hear any love coming out of you and it does not want me to open up to you... AT ALL. Unfortunately you sound just like a typical fundamental/conservative Christian not willing to hear our side. I never said I had all the answers. I never said that I was right. I just want to be able to discuss and bounce my ideas to where they won't be automatically shut down by what YOU think is the truth.

    May 11, 2012

  170. Anon Y Mousse

    Some great reads about another perspective on homosexuality and Christianity...


    Jack Rogers "Jesus, The Bible, and Homosexuality"

    Mel White "Stranger at the Gate" (his autobiography)

    Daniel A. Helminiak "What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality"

    Andrew Marin "Love is an Orientation"

    :)

    My email is: passionforlife86@gmail.com
    May 11, 2012

  171. Renee

    Cary,

    Do you understand the notion of consent?

    If so, you would realize that NAMBLA cannot be addressed in a discussion about homosexuality because the former lacks consent (as minors cannot legally consent to sexual activity with adults).

    Also, just a reminder that the original Hebrew text of the Torah did not have a word that translates to "homosexual" as we understand it today. Translation: Homosexuality is not at odds with God.

    Finally, what did Jesus say was His greatest commandment? LOVE. Period. That's it. Your number one job on this Earth is to love. And as a former Christian, let me tell you, a good deal of you are doing a terrible job at following this most important law. Hence why I am no longer a Christian and why many people I'm sure, LGBT community included, turn away from Christianity. Congratulations. May 11, 2012

  172. Mika

    I think the most necessary thing here is for everyone (hetero, homo and heck even metrosexuals alike) to press into God. The more we press into him and seek after him, the better off we'll be. The Holy Spirit convicts, not the Biola community. I understand the need to be in but not of the world but I think sometimes we forget we are IN the world, and a fallen world at that! God knows what's up and he'll put the right people in check when they need to be put in check.
    Love is essential for bringing people to see the beauty of a God that may be unfamiliar to them; no simply because they aren't saved, but maybe because the "love" they've seen from Christians hasn't really been love at all.
    I am so glad that this is being brought up, regardless of my opinions for or against the issue at hand. I love the dialogue that is being put forth and I've even learned some things I didn't know.
    I'm not trying to make up my mind or really anyone else's for that matter. I don't think that's that important. What I do think is important is making sure that our brothers and sisters in Christ that our struggling with a sin (be it sexuality based or not)are supported, heard, loved, understood and encouraged to begin or continue to move towards Godly action. I really think we can do good through this and other dialogues. I mean come on, Biola has a GOSPEL choir now.
    We can do anything! May 11, 2012

  173. Renee

    Mika,

    Hehe! Metrosexual has nothing to do with sexuality. It tends to refer to men (of any sexual preference) who spend large amounts of time and/or money on their appearance.

    =) May 11, 2012

  174. Biola Honey Badger

    Going along with what Renee (hi!) says about love:
    I've noticed a couple mentions of "But only men and women can have children," and I think it's apposite to note that because gay couples can't become pregnant outside of IVF, many adopt children, which, in my mind, fulfills half of the True Religion call in James 1:27 - to look after orphans [and widows]. May 11, 2012

  175. Sean

    Allow me to restate what I said yesterday:

    I don't think the comment section of the chimes website is the proper forum to discuss this issue. This forum is too informal and impersonal to have a meaningful discussion. People are more likely to speak without compassion on here than they would be if they were face-to-face with the person they are talking with. Give up this meaningless discussion and have a meaningful discussion with someone whose point of view might make you uncomfortable.

    Your never really going to get anywhere on here so just give it up. May 11, 2012

  176. Renee

    Biola Honey Badger (hi to you too!),

    When I read comments referring to gay couples not being able to reproduce, I naturally asked, well what about infertile, heterosexual couples? What about post-menopausal women? What about people who choose not to have children? Are they living in sin? Should they not be able to get married? Obviously not.

    The "but they can't reproduce" argument is utter nonsense. May 11, 2012

  177. Josiah

    I have been seeing this argument pop up a bit lately: "Homosexual/homosexuality" is not found in the original translations of the books of the Bible." Can someone please site which Codex they are using to make this statement? May 11, 2012

  178. Renee

    Josiah,

    A simple google search will enable you to see that biblical, historical and linguistic scholars have yet to find a word in biblical Greek or Hebrew that is equivalent to the English word "homosexual." In fact, the first time that the word was used in the Bible was the RSV version in 1946.

    Please know that acknowledging this and other faults in the Bible, due to man's misunderstood game of telephone does not and should not shake your faith. I see God as more than what the words of man (i.e. the Bible) can contain.

    Much love. May 11, 2012

  179. Arlin Edmondson

    "@Arlin. I just want to let you know that your words so far - to me - are borderline attacking. You threw Bible verses at me..."

    The only verse I quoted to you was:

    Leviticus 19:33-34
    "“When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself"

    If asking you a series of questions about your familiarity with the broader context of texts you were blatantly dismissing as irrelevant is 'attacking' you, then no discussion is possible at all.

    You just recommended four books, let me recommend a book that refutes the arguments in those books:

    http://www.amazon.com/Same-Sex-Controversy-The-Homosexuality/dp/0764225243/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1336777762&sr=1-1

    If you truly believe you want to have thoroughly read the relevant scholarship and material on the subject, read that book.Make sure to read the appendices, because a great deal of the most important information is included there.

    If you truly want to study this issue and know that you have read across the lines with which you disagree, also read the works they cite to demonstrate their position.
    May 11, 2012

  180. Arlin Edmondson

    "that biblical, historical and linguistic scholars have yet to find a word in biblical Greek or Hebrew that is equivalent to the English word 'homosexual.'"

    Yes we do:
    "Arsenokoites"
    Which means:
    'what men do with men in bed'.

    Derived from Lev. 18 and 20,
    where it reads:

    'καὶ μετὰ ἄρσενος οὐ κοιμηθήσῃ κοίτην γυναικός βδέλυγμα γάρ ἐστιν'

    'καὶ ὃς ἂν κοιμηθῇ μετὰ ἄρσενος κοίτην γυναικός'

    Which is to say Lev. 20:13 'If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination'.

    Now, Renee, you are partially right.

    Before the New Testament, there was no known term referring to 'homosexuality' as a concept.

    Homosexual behaviour was very common in the ancient world and was often considered normal.

    The Greeks integrated it into their concept of mentor-ship of older men and younger boys.

    So, all the terms in existence referred to such relationships and to prostitutes.

    Paul had to derive a term to use from the Jewish tradition, which had very counter culturally, condemned homosexuality.

    Where would he get a word that described the basic idea of two men or two women behaving sexually together?
    Leviticus, where it is condemned consistently.



    May 11, 2012

  181. David

    The real test will be about how well the non-homosexual BIOLAns listen to the homosexual BIOLAns - and then how they proceed to think about and treat them. This will determine the level of Christ-likeness of the non-homosexual BIOLAns.

    Those who have not experienced same-sex attraction are profoundly ignorant on the experience of same-sex attraction. Therefore an authentic humility is needed in approaching it.

    Here's my Advice:

    (1) Listen better. (2) trust Christ to provide words for you to say to professing homosexuals. (3) And act as though God loves each and every one of them in an unmeasurable and unfathomable way.

    Because he does.

    May 11, 2012

  182. What?

    Wait a minute, I get it! no wait, thats new age music. and I'm still oblivious! May 11, 2012

  183. Renee

    Arlin:

    "Yes we do: Arsenokoites. Which means
    'what men do with men in bed'."

    This is not accurate. Arseno is the Greek word for man and koite is the Greek word for bed, used euphemistically to mean having sex. The Jewish philosopher, Philo, as well as most Jews during the first century, understood Moses' law in Lev. 20:13 to be a condemnation of incest, pederasty and temple prostitution. Dr. James Barr's "The Semantics of Biblical Language" can provide deep insight into this relatively recent misinterpretation of Leviticus.


    "The Greeks integrated it into their concept of mentor-ship of older men and younger boys."

    Although this is historically accurate, this is specifically one example of what the original translation of Lev. 20:13 was condemning: pederasty.


    "Paul had to derive a term to use from the Jewish tradition, which had very counter culturally, condemned homosexuality."

    Can you please re-word this? I honestly have no idea what you are attempting to say here.


    Thanks! =) May 11, 2012

  184. Khainiwest

    Haha, comparing bestiality to homosexuality, your illogical conclusions are endless aren't they?

    Homosexuality is clearly a naturally occurring process, considering there are dozens of variant examples of animals.

    Sex is a physical action, ejaculation is the reason, it's clear one of the bibles messages is not to over indulge on pleasure, take things in moderation. Animals don't understand that, therefore it's instinct to practice things that give pleasure. Such as the displeasure of reading these clearly hateful comments towards people that have no control besides taking responsibility for their decision.

    I don't need the bible's verses quoted to me, I understand that the bible was written through the word of god, but wasn't written /by/ god. It's written by human's, who are corrupt by nature, you honestly are going to tell me there was no influence politically put towards that book during it's creation? Naive.

    It's a collections of story trying to teach what we consider basic morality. Human's are animals, we have a more developed conscious to understand the consequences of our actions. Animals in general do not and work only on survival. Will the pigeon in Britain who steals potato chips go to hell?

    It's all about creating a power for control, the reason you are losing that control, and that organized religion is dieing is because the remnants of an archaic "personal god" is being seeing as more ridiculous.

    Faith is one thing, directionless hatred towards a group who does not conform to your beliefs is another. Do you enjoy being stereotyped as the hick's in the south? Those who are uneducated, naive, gullible, and/or blindly looking for reason.

    Until you open your eyes to other's perspective, to be honest, your chance of hell is much greater than a persons privacy in the bedroom. To judge someone so shallowly, I just can't fathom how you can look yourselves in the mirror and honestly believe you're a good person.

    Sorry, I'm American, I believe in equal rights for everyone. It seems the stereotypical stigma of hypocrisy is more accurate than I thought on these cults. May 11, 2012

  185. Arlin Edmondson

    Renee,

    Have you taken Greek?

    "This is not accurate."

    Actually, it is entirely accurate and well supported in the lexicons, dictionaries, and textual scholarship surrounding the New Testament.

    Arsenokoites from ἄρσην and κοίτη is wholly and properly understood to mean 'men who bed men' or 'men in bed' or 'male-male sex'. Ect.

    "Arseno is the Greek word for man"

    ἄρσην is the Greek word for man.

    'Arseno' is a fragment.

    Again, do you know Greek or have you taken classes in Greek?

    "and koite is the Greek word for bed, used euphemistically to mean having sex."

    Yes, κοίτη essentially does mean bed.

    This was implied in my translation of 'arsenokoites' as 'what men do with men in bed'. You could also render it 'men-bedders' or the like.

    κοίτη it is a cognate to the Latin 'coitus', which means 'to come together', sexually speaking. Similar to the English word 'intercourse'.

    "as well as most Jews during the first century, understood Moses' law in Lev. 20:13 to be a condemnation of incest, pederasty and temple prostitution."

    First of all, the law is repeated twice in 18:22 and then 20:13.

    Second, Greek had a number of words for pederasty. Why would Paul need to derive one, almost from scratch, to describe it when he had a plethora to choose from and was versed in Greek poetry and writings?

    If Paul was talking about 'pederasty' why did he not use the word 'paiderastia'?

    Instead, he lifted language from a sentence in Leviticus that says:
    "A male shall not lay with a male as with a woman".

    Thirdly, there is no textual basis for that interpretation in the context. And the text does not say "a male shall not lay with a male child as with a woman". The language firmly implies they are both adult males.

    Further, the immediate context are laws against bestiality and adultery and their punishments. As well as a other sexual rules that had nothing to do with pagan worship at all.

    Is adultery only wrong when it is done in pagan temples?

    And finally: that just isn't true.
    Please cite primary sources that back up your claim.

    "The Jewish philosopher, Philo,"

    Citation, please.

    And Philo is relevant to the 2nd Temple Judaism that Christianity came from, how, again?

    "Dr. James Barr's "The Semantics of Biblical Language" can provide deep insight into this relatively recent misinterpretation of Leviticus."

    Would you please quote his relevant statements on this text, as I can not find a kindle edition of this book.

    And my last sentence was supposed to be:

    Paul had to derive a term to use from the Jewish tradition. Condemning homosexuality was very counter cultural.

    Thanks. May 11, 2012

  186. Arlin Edmondson

    Khainiwest,

    "I don't need the bible's verses quoted to me, I understand that the bible was written through the word of god"



    "the reason... that organized religion is dieing is because the remnants of an archaic "personal god" is being seeing as more ridiculous."

    So... what exactly do you believe, Khainiwest?

    You just expressed two entirely different perspectives.

    "Haha, comparing bestiality to homosexuality, your illogical conclusions are endless aren't they?"

    That is a straw-man fallacy and a blatant ad hominem argument wrapped into one.

    I didn't compare them.

    They are right next to each-other in the text of Lev. 18 and 20, along with adultery and various forms of fornication.

    By your logic I compared bestiality with adultery. Though, on second thought, that is a rather good comparison.
    Adultery is a great evil.

    But our God is a great saviour.

    "Homosexuality is clearly a naturally occurring process, considering there are dozens of variant examples of animals."

    Animals also eat their young, eat each-other, rape, eat their own vomit, eat their own feces, et cetera.

    Do you really want to base human morality in the behaviour of animals?

    "It's written by human's, who are corrupt by nature, you honestly are going to tell me there was no influence politically put towards that book during it's creation? Naive."

    Naive? Who is naive?

    Is God so pathetic and weak that He can not control what men do so as to preserve His word?

    Jesus seems to have had a very high regard for the authority of the Old Testament scriptures, as did Paul.

    Is anything in the scriptures authoritative in your view?

    From your statements above about God, apparently you are the authority over both the scriptures and God's existence.

    May 11, 2012

  187. Someone who is struggling with same sex attraction

    Arlin.

    What are you trying to achieve? Are you truly trying to understand where we're coming from? It just seems like you're trying to argue, debate, and break down every idea that we bring up to the table.

    Can't you see we're hurting, and that the "way out" doesn't feel completely right?

    Why can't you understand that people have different views of theology and that you might, just maybe, might be wrong, or that maybe a lot of what you think is also the way you were influenced in the society you grew up in or the professors that taught you?

    I'm gonna stop reading these comments (especially yours) because they are hurtful and argumentative and is NOT helpful in any way. Everything you've brought up is stuff we've heard over and over and over a MILLION times. Trust.

    People like you have hurt people like us to where we've left the church because we don't feel welcome. Thank you for that.

    I know that Jesus loves me no matter what. Even if I do make mistakes or let my emotions cloud my judgement. HE will be my only Judge. Not you or anyone judgmental like you.

    Peace.



    May 12, 2012

  188. JC

    Whoever is without sin can cast the first stone.
    May 12, 2012

  189. Richmond

    @khainiwest (comment 185)

    You are a troll. You know that this is a conservative Christian community internally discussing a very difficult topic. And what do you do? You, an outsider comes here to spout all kinds of garbage about the Bible and God. It's very clear that you came here to troll. This is already at least the second time you hurled insults at this community. Please go away because you didn't come here to have a conversation. You came here to take a dump. May 12, 2012

  190. Jake

    Khainiwest is posting inflammatory comments in order to incite trouble in this comments section. Therefore khainiwest is a troll. Be gone troll! May 12, 2012

  191. Arlin Edmondson

    I really need to renew my use of the 'paragraph format'. Yikes. May 12, 2012

  192. Arlin Edmondson

    Anonymous:

    I have not engaged in emotionalism, emotional appeals, personal attacks, vitriol, or the like, whatsoever. My posts have been almost entirely rote academics - with the occasional venture into ministry.

    If you think, even for a moment, that I am not twice as hard on myself for my sin as I am towards this issue, then you are simply ignorant of who I am and have never invested a moment in trying to know me.

    Success in fighting any sin will only come through the light of the Gospel, which kills sin.

    Anonymous:
    "Why can't you understand that people have different views of theology"

    The presence of alternative perspectives does not, itself, validate them. Unitarians exist, so does that mean they should not be actively refuted? The facts of the matter are that the Bible is clear on this issue.

    No amount of 'hurt' someone 'feels' will change the meaning of the words in the text. The sexual ethic of the scriptures is clear. One's emotions do not dictate the meaning of the text.

    Is sin invasive and inviting? You bet. That is why it must be vilified and mortified. Not harbored and tended.
    Sin is our enemy, not our friend.

    Anonymous:
    "and that you might,
    just maybe,
    might be wrong"

    This is not an argument.
    Considering the amount of effort I have put into making a clear case and presenting evidence accurately, do you really think that I do not regularly reassess my own views or would perpetuate a belief not thoroughly studied?

    Anonymous:
    "or that maybe a lot of what you think is also the way you were influenced in the society you grew up in or the professors that taught you?"

    Are you suggesting I am in some sense brainwashed? I grew up in public school in a society that radically supports homosexuality and a host of other sins. One of my most beloved as well as fair teachers in High School was the Adviser of the Gay-Straight Alliance, for goodness sake.

    Anonymous:
    "I know that Jesus loves me no matter what. Even if I do make mistakes or let my emotions cloud my judgement. HE will be my only Judge. Not you or anyone judgmental like you."

    He will judge. You speak rightly. If you are truly repentant of your sin, and hate your sin, and seek his commandments, and your heart condemns you still, God is greater than your heart.

    Anonymous:
    "that the "way out" doesn't feel completely right?"

    That is the deceitfulness of sin. Sin always feels better and looks easier than the alternative. In the end its sweetness covers poison.

    Anonymous:
    "Can't you see we're hurting... People like you have hurt people like us to where we've left the church because we don't feel welcome. Thank you for that."

    My life is 23 years of 'hurt'. Would you like me to list them all out to you? I don't. I would like to move on. I never abandoned the Church because the Church hurt me or Christians hurt me.

    This emotional appeal is shallow, filled only with its own hypocrisy. May 12, 2012

  193. Lindsey (class of 2010)

    If we come out and say it-that the reason for something is that we were hurt by someone else.....thats awful and i'm so sorry that was the case, but that cannot be our excuse for everything. God gives us the strength to rise above it! And when we are hurt by others who have a certain viewpoint on things-whether we like it or not...what about our stance on forgiveness for them towards their wrongs against us? we're all imperfect people. myself included-super imperfect. but we can't go around blaming people-yes it does have a huge effect on us-and it hurts. but thats when we need to look to God to help us to overcome that and forgive those who hurt us-just as Christ forgave us when we were in our worst state. stay in the Word! read what it says! study it-follow it. pray pray pray! pray for whats currently going on on our campus-that this situation will go on the way that is most pleasing and honoring to God. no, we cant sweep it under the rug and pretend like the issue isnt there-but it does need to get 'figured out' in truth and love. because God is the only perfect/holy one-we are not. but that is what we should all strive to be! just as He has called us. we also need to love and forgive those who have wronged us. find a good christian mentor. a person who is older than you-very seasoned in God's word and the gospel-learn from them-share your heart and soul with them and ask them to come alongside you in your struggles. we as believers are called to help carry one anothers burdens. and i do think we all need to be kind and compassionate towards each other on here...ALL OF US!!! if we are truly Christ followers and His children-then we should be bound together with love-as Christ loved us-because we are the body of Christ. We should be helping each other-loving each other-but also need to be there when it comes to the hard part-of restoring each other in love. when you see someone in sin-restoring them gently-wanting to bring grace, love, and healing to their lives. only Christ can do this-but He is all powerful and can do ANYTHING!!! He is fully in control. May 12, 2012

  194. Ryan

    http://www.thetwocities.com/culture/thebiolaqueerunderground/ May 12, 2012

  195. Mika

    @Renee

    Thanks. I knew that, just was making joke. May 12, 2012

  196. Steve aka Joe Mama '79

    The gay life style is clearly antithetical to the Christian life style as are many other behaviors winked at by the Christian community. We as Christian have tolerated many sins in our own community and we often only shake our heads angrily at other unbiblical behaviors in public (instead of doing something). How can we not expect this behavior at Biola when we tolerate so many other sins as well. I had a lot of “fun” at Biola as did many of my friends. We didn’t always follow all the rules - however we did not start a group to announce our rule breaking or to have discussions about it. This current behavior at Biola is sad but not unexpected. Homosexuality was at Biola in the 1970s, but it was not culturally acceptable and celebrated as it is becoming today. The Ivy League schools started as religious schools before becoming bastions of liberalism. Historically this type of slide towards acceptance of sin is clear. It’s much easier to tolerate than take a stand. I fall into toleration much more often than I wish. Thankfully, America has had several spiritual awakenings, which reversed or slowed down the spiritual decline and empowered Christians into standing up for Biblical morality. We should pray for revival at Biola (and our country), examine our own lives, ask God for wisdom and compassion in dealing with others, and “dare to be a Daniel” while we stand up against immorality in our own churches and communities. It is possible to stand up for truth and have compassion. I have former and current students dealing with this and other important issues and I would truly value your prayers as I deal with my high school students. May 12, 2012

  197. Lianna

    Just my personal experience.

    While my parents and church family for the most part do not know of my identity (I was once raped by 'Christians' for being gay. I do not feel ready to meet anything that may endanger me in that way right now), I am blessed because the few Christians who are aware have been supportive. That this is a rarity is a tragedy.

    A close friend who feels strongly that homosexuality is incompatible with Christianity asked me how I came to my opposite conclusion. I remember simply saying, "Peter, I've thought about this and researched it and prayed about it for years. And for now, I feel it is not a sin. If God reveals that it is, you know I will repent. And if He does not do so in this lifetime for one reason or another, but this is still the case, I am willing to stand before Him as one who has loved Him dearly and sought his face constantly, and beg his pardon."

    And while he still disagrees, he is my closest and dearest friend and has been a rock for me in my hard times. My pastor has responded similarly. They have never tried to shame me into rejecting this identity, with which I have found much peace. They have never indicated that I would lose their fellowship or membership in the church should I not conform to their definitions of sin. They have simply recognized that it is between me and God.

    This, I believe, is what needs to be done here. May 13, 2012

  198. Arlin Edmondson

    Lianna,

    Thank you for sharing this and thank you for your honesty.

    I can only say that the Lord has revealed in His word what sin is and that any sexuality outside the marriage of a man and a woman is sin. This is emphatically clear. I also believe that you do know this and you do know that subjective feelings do not determine truth.

    I can also say that the command to 'repent' is not a command of condemnation but of restoration and healing.

    That said,
    "While my parents and church family for the most part do not know of my identity (I was once raped by 'Christians' for being gay. I do not feel ready to meet anything that may endanger me in that way right now)."

    I am so sorry. I can not even fathom the harm, the hurt, and the cruelty of what they did; or the feelings you feel.
    They are not 'christians' and can't be.
    They had not right to bear that name,
    no right to look at you with derision, and it is impossible to exaggerate just how evil their actions were.

    The same scripture that rebukes and exhorts Christians to fight and avoid sin, condemns them ten times over for their truly hateful hatred.

    Again, I am so sorry and can not understand how you feel or what you have experienced.

    1 Corinthians 13:7a reads in the Greek:
    "παντα στεγει" which means 'Protects all' or 'Covers all in protection'.

    This is Christian love; this is the love that should have driven the men of that 'church' to keep you safe.

    This appears to be the love that your Pastors are engaging in so as to not break a bruised reed.
    I hope this to be true.

    I wish I could remove your pain; but if you truly believe, then in the Resurrection all is restored. May 13, 2012

  199. Susie Bennett

    I have to ask, who defines what qualifies as bigoted or unloving? When people "confront" others about their beliefs on homosexuality, their sexual orientation, or their same-sex relationships "in love," whom are they trying to comfort by saying that it is "in love"?

    I ask this because as an LGBTQ person of faith, I found Biola's president's response to the Queer Underground to be both unloving and bigoted, two things he, in the same breath, stated would not be tolerated. May 13, 2012

  200. Richie Conway

    Hi Susie,

    The definition of bigot in the oxford dictionary is one who is bigoted, which according to it is, "having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one's own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others." Everyone is guilty of believing their opinion is superior if they are willing to compare it to each other so the key lies in "prejudiced intolerance," and prejudice is a "preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience." Considering his beliefs aren't preconceived opinion not based on reason or actual experience, he fails to be a bigot.

    Thus CB isn't a bigot. People in this debate try to trump the non-supporters of homosexual practices by calling them bigots. It doesn't go by the definition, and is a non-logical way of attempting to win ones point. So I'm confused as to that declaration.

    As far as the loving aspect... If you confronted someone over an alcohol addition, love of porn, etc, wouldn't that be considered a loving thing? It may not be comfortable but it is loving. Those being confronted don't feel loved at the time because everyone wants people to unconditionally support their both good and bad habits, but it would be unloving to not speak up. The only reason you dont see it as love is because you think it's a good thing.

    Have you ever considered that the Biblical view could be correct?
    May 14, 2012

  201. Jason (Class 2010')

    "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."

    May 14, 2012

  202. J.J.

    I am not a Biola alumna, but I went Wheaton college,where gay students are undergoing similar struggles (and,kudos to you, Biola, for being willing to keep the dialogue open!)

    I've struggled with the implications of scripture and same sex relationships, both watching my college roommate come to terms with her sexuality, and marry a woman, and coming to terms with my own, after my (straight) marriage fell apart due to abuse, and I re-came out to myself as bisexual. (i'd identified as straight for several years, but my denial in not acknowledging my attraction to both men and women ended up causing me some significant psychological problems, and I found I needed to change. My behavior hasn't changed at this point, but the joy in being honest with myself is huge.)

    I can see how it's tough to reconcile Christianity anbending in a same-sex relationship. If you read individual verses, in English, it's pretty damning (in the literal sense of the world). But, I too, became convinced that the scriptures can be interpreted to be affirming of same sex relationships. And not only that, but if that is the case, I believe it should be up to individual Christians to wrestle with the verses honestly on their own, and their decision is between them and God.

    I have a request to those who would condemn the theology of your classmates. For the sake of your brothers and sisters in Christ for whom you are affecting with your words, would you be willing to look at the case for an affirming point of view, and see if you, too, feel that it is possible that this should be an individual decision? Matthew Vines, a gay Christian student at Harvard, put together an hour-long presentation that covers both what it is like to be gay and a Christian, and the an analysis of the 6 verses that address (or are are said to address) homosexual behavior. It's also found in transcript form, for a quick read. http://matthewvines.tumblr.com/

    Blessings on all of you as you seek after the truth, May 15, 2012

  203. Mackenzie (Class of 2011)

    @Arlin:

    Well done, dude. You're catching a lot of flack for tirelessly patrolling this comment section and addressing individual comments with incredible scholarship combined with Christian love and grace. I wanted to let you know that there are those of us who appreciate the work and thought you've put into your posts (especially going into the Greek).

    "When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this?...

    After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him."

    John 6:60-66

    The truth will offend people and cause them to leave. Jesus didn't change his message, even after "many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him." It happened with the young man in Luke, it happened here in John. If you think, "this hurts my feelings, this offends me, it can't be truth," then read this passage again.

    Why do people act as though the traditional interpretation is the easy way out? I don't like hurting people's feelings. I don't like telling them that I think their lifestyle is wrong. It would be far easier for me to cave and affirm homosexuality.

    Please allow us some motive other than hatred and laziness. May 15, 2012

  204. Jason (Class of 2010)

    @ J.J. and you others seem to be willingly confused.

    'If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood [shall be] upon them. Lev. 20:13"

    If Biola Caves to this perverse crowd it will most certainly be the beginning of the end for Biola.

    "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
    Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death." (James 1:15-16) May 15, 2012

  205. JohnE

    First off ladies and gentlemen, I am not attending the school of Biola, though I am a resident So Cal. On top of that, I am on the middle ground religiously, Agnostic, that doesn't mean I am better or worse than anyone here, or at the school, or at my own school.

    Now, lets look back, to start, at a bit of history. Christians started out as an underground religion, one that the Romans sought to oppress. That right there, my friends, relates directly to the issue you have at hand here. You have a group of people, human beings and individuals that are seeking to be recognized, very much like Christians back in the times of the Romans. You can try to argue that it is two completely different issues, but no. Its not. They are the same and they both seek the same outcome. Recognition.

    Now, if the bible is supposed to be seen as "law", then let me tell you, some of those "laws" are not being followed, and the majority of them should never be followed in this day and age. The thing with time and the advancement of civilizations, is that you have to adapt everything to current views on things. Lets look at the whole "priests molesting boys" thing. It goes against the basic morals that the bible has, yet because these people were seen as "holier than thou", they really aren't punished by the churches in a manner fitting with the severity of what they have done. Most of them just get relocated to another church and everything is all hush hush. Actually, that could be the real issue here. That arguments are really just fronts against people in order negate the chance for a real discussion. If you outright bash something or someone, and put them down, you leave no room to hear the other side, to allow them to actually be human and voice what they want as an individual. That's not a conversation or discussion. That's just avoiding the issue. You are just avoiding the issue.

    Now, I again, am Agnostic. I was raised, however, Christian. I could not accept a religion where I just had to follow blindly and never question the absurdities that were apparent to me. I started calling myself an Agnostic as early as 14. If a 14 year old can look at a religion, and see flaws, why should everyone follow it in a blind manner? It is human nature to question things, and it is human nature that should govern religion, not the religion governing human nature. Because, if god was the one that made man, he would have to accept all the flaws that he placed in them. People of the LGBT community are not flaws. They are people and humans. May 15, 2012

  206. J.J.

    Jason, what did you think of Matthew Vines' transcript? I'm not going to defend myself further, because it addresses exactly why I would not see myself as "willingly confused". I'm interested in a discussion, but only one where both points of view are heard. If you're not willing to look at mine, I'd rather not discuss, and I definately don't want to hear what you think of my thinking (willingly confused), which doesn't seem that far off of "raca" to me.

    I could see the scriptures as possibly saying that homosexuality is wrong. But I'd also need to see them as saying that playing football, wearing 50% cotton trousers, and going back for seconds at a church social just because it tasted good (especially if it was shrimp or pork) was just as wrong. Some Christians choose to do all of those. Some don't. I see that as up to the individual's conscience.
    May 15, 2012

  207. Jason (Class of 2010)

    @ Johne
    Why are you even posting your comments to Biola students about your agnostic views. No one is confused about God. Your barking up the wrong tree pal.

    @ J.J.
    You said, "I could see the scriptures as possibly saying that homosexuality is wrong." Let me help you out. Homosexuality is wrong (period). And with that being said there need not be anything else said except...repentence...and then fellowship restored. May 15, 2012

  208. JohnE

    @Jason

    Fine then. Omit the remarks about Agnosticism and my argument is still valid. May 16, 2012

  209. J.J.

    Okay, I'm backing out of this. Jason, it's not because I'm convinced, but because I am so thoroughly unconvinced as to not make this worth investing more time. If you can't look at the opposing viewpoints well enough to respond to them directly, tease out the truth in them, and tease out where you object on a rational/hermeneutical level rather than emotional level, then this will be just words, repeating where we already stand, and we need to agree to disagree. And the emotional tone of your response to me and Johne tells me this is not an interaction based in love, and why subject myself to that?

    Good luck to you.

    May 16, 2012

  210. Jason (Class of 2010)


    I read in my daily bible reading today that in Judges chapters 1 & 2 that many of the tribes of Israel did not finish pushing out the inhabitants as God and Moses commanded them to do. As a result these inhabitants became a thorn in their flesh with their false idols and such. My point is if we want to claim the territory God has for us we must be willing to push out those old inhabitants that will become a thorn to our flesh. These inhabitants could be music, movies, types of friends, type of thinking, a type of speaking, and of course the very topic of this blog, homosexuality and etc. May 16, 2012

  211. JohnE

    Jason, I will call you out now as a troll. You are fanning the flames of this discussion, swaying minds against what was taught in the bible. May 16, 2012

  212. Lisa

    It always saddens me to know that there are those who chose to DEFY God, which is only a blaring evidence that they DO NOT KNOW HIM, much less want to SUBMIT to HIM or truly FOLLOW HIM through HIS teaching in the WORD, which has been graciouly given to mankind. We are all sinners, but those who repent have salvation in our Savior Christ Jesus. A sinner, in this case a homosexual, man or woman cannot embrace the perverted sexual act as the Bible teaches that it is and be a Follower of Christ or escape the judgment of Hell. God is love and mercy, but that is only one part of the Truth, he is also a God of wrath and judgement. Vessels of honor, vessels of destruction. Romans 9:22 Pray for HIS MERCY now or even this token message will taunt you in the end. You have been warned, may the Holy Spirit breath true life into your souls and draw from the bondage of sin and darkness into HIS marvelous light. May 16, 2012

  213. Lisa

    Additionally, for anyone, but specifically JOHNE, have you ever read the entire Word of God, in entirely, studied it with a mind and heart of seeking truth? No, that is clear. Why do you discuss your thoughts when you know nothing of the subject matter? Would you go to a surgeon and tell him how to perform surgery if you are not a surgeon able to discuss intelligently the issue? Would you attend a city council meeting without KNOWING about the issues at hand to voice an opinion? No, you would be thought a fool. Faith even at the base Religion is a subject matter for those who have learned knowledge,not just reasoning ability. Sorry, but those who know little or nothing should remain silent. Learn first then speak. May 16, 2012

  214. Jason (Class of 2010)

    @ Lisa
    Thank you Lisa. Finally some wisdom.

    @ Johne
    Sorry Johne but your simply wrong on all counts. And by the way that was a hideous spin on the first Christians and the Queer Underground(#206) May 16, 2012

  215. JohnE

    @Lisa

    Actually, I have read the whole bible, and studied it. I am a person who likes to learn, and even with something like religion, I have studied Christianity, as well as others. It was actually that studying that led me to call myself agnostic.

    Now, have YOU truly read the whole bible? If you want to take that for face value, I am pretty sure there is more than one instance within that pertains to women and how the should act towards men. Somewhere along the lines of showing respect.

    Its not a very Christian thing to go against the word of the bible, you know. May 16, 2012

  216. WCW - C/O 2006 - Part 1

    I am extremely disappointed by some of the members of the Biola community and their stated views in support of homosexuality on this topic. I’m also, to a lesser extent, disappointed at some of the current students who do not seem to appreciate the value that alumni continue to bring to the community – but I digress. To my earlier point, I feel it worth noting the rather obvious in that we simply cannot have God on OUR terms. It is one thing to struggle with sin as we all do and it is quite another to simply say that sins are not sins. This idea that everything is a matter of interpretation is an idea that lazy or ignorant people use to justify poorly thought out positions or to avoid conflict when debating the finer points of Christian theology/orthodoxy. The reality is there is no legitimate biblical or systematic theology that allows for an interpretation of homosexuality as morally permissible. And so it is that this shift from struggling with sin to excusing/justifying sin is the dividing line between the call for tolerance and patience with others as we all struggle in community and strict accountability so as to preserve the biblical nature of a given Christian community.

    It is disheartening to see so many uphold “dialogue” as the apparent panacea of human interaction (nevermind that in this case, the word “dialogue” appears to be little more than an equivocation for an opportunity for the Biola Queer Underground to stand on a soapbox and spread propaganda). Ergo, we now see the superficial nonsense espoused by so many of my fellow Biola alumni, who appear to be so blindsided by the postmodern ideal that we can never hurt or offend someone. The irony of the claim for a “need” for dialogue is that while I have many legitimate gripes about Biola I've NEVER found it to be a place where the community en general shied away from difficult theological questions, both in theory and in practice, nor has it ever been a place that has ever preached and practiced anything other than a thoughtful balance between love, patience, and strict obedience to obvious biblical truths. Ergo, I find myself confused as to why there is a sudden call for "dialogue" when there has ALWAYS been an open dialogue for nearly any Christian topic on campus. May 16, 2012

  217. WCW - C/O 2006 - PART 2

    Given this experience, I think the truth of the matter is despite whatever claims that may be made to the contrary, the Biola Queer Underground absolutely does desire to have a change in policy and further believes that it can only be benefited by bringing superficial moral claims to a community that is disappointingly and obviously influenced by the soft soap of the superficial and largely self defeating moral constructs of secular society, qua, "We must have a dialogue". I mean, must we? Really? Because it sure seems like one side has had their voice heard and the other side has stated its position and had it’s voice heard and the "dialogue" has pretty well reached an impasse. What more is there to say? At what point can a matter finally be decided? When Biola gives in? Well, I can tell you this much, for all of its (mostly minor) imperfections, Biola is NOT going to be so foolish as to deviate from an obvious biblical truth to appease a very vocal, but VERY small minority, who don’t like the implications of the reality of Christian theism. Following Christ isn't about making yourself or others happy. I'm sorry to say that's just not the deal that we’ve been given and, for those of you who haven’t been paying attention, we as sinful beings really don’t have any room to complain as grace is a pretty darn good deal on any terms. So there it is: I don't get to have premarital sex, Mikey doesn't get to steal, Sally doesn't get to lust, Joey doesn't get to cheat on his wife, Tommy doesn't get to take The Lord's name in vain, and the Biola Queer Underground doesn't get to have homosexual sexual relationships. Christ demands that we die to our flesh. Welcome to the club guys/gals/whatever. We all screw up. We're all imperfect. But we absolutely do NOT get to change the rules at our convenience.


    And so, all of that being said, I leave you readers of these comments with this timely message from 2 Timothy Chapter 4 verses 1- 6, which tells us that things like the Biola Queer Underground are bound to happen and instructs us on how to repsond:


    In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage —with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. May 16, 2012

  218. J.J.

    I don't think that I, or your fellow students, are saying that everything is open to interpretation.  We are saying that this is a very difficult issue.  With big consequences.  On the one hand, if we are wrong that God clearly condemns homosexual behavior, we have mistakenly asked a significant proportion of population to give up some of the richest blessings of life: family relationships.  We know God holds those dear because if His words in Genesis.  "it is not good for man to be alone".  On the other, if salvation is at stake, well, that's even bigger.  

    So you can bet that every queer Christian has wrestled long and hard on this.  It's not a matter of ignorance or laziness. It's a matter of complexity.  And, for most of us, if the issue is our salvation or a temporary relationship, the obvious choice is clear towards salvation.  But yoy can bet that we would really grapple with and study all possible interpretations of what God says because the price is high in getting it wrong.   

    I know from your post that you value knowledge and academic excellence.  You state that there is no legitimate theology allowing for homosexuality as morally permissable.  (I'd disagree on the literal statement of your words.  Homosexuality is the attraction of people primarily to their own sex, and without accompanying actions, most Christian scholars, maybe including you, acknowledge that this is not, in and itself sinful.  But I'm assuming for purposes of discussion that you're meaning a committed lifelong partnership to a member of the same sex cannot be reconciled ith Christianity)..  I'd like to challenge you, if you haven't already, to put that desire for knowledge and academic excellence into practice.  The Matthew Vines' video I referenced above was the result of a Harvard student on a two-year sabbatical putting over 4000 hours of study into what the Bible said about homosexuality.  He holds to the traditional hermaneutics of evangelicalism.  It's pretty safe to say that at the moment, he has the best easily accessible case out there for why a literal interpretation of the Bible and a committed, monogamous same sex relationship aren't necessarily incompatible.  If you can, give it a view or read, approaching his work with an open heart and your best thinking, and a slow pace (it's tempting just to take your previously held belief and quickly find one thing that doesn't sit well with you, and dismiss the whole argument, and a fair hearing involves getting into why someone might see something in a way you wouldn't. That takes time).  I'd be interested to see if your perceived view that no thinking, studying Christian could hold a non-traditional stance would changed at all with slow study like this.  
    May 17, 2012

  219. J.J.

    Part 2


    To answer the questions you are bringing up of a dialogue:  why?  And what does that entail?-

    I'm drawing from generalizations here.  But, in most Christian places, it is extremely hard to come out as an ally, let alone gay or queer.  Listen around you: do you hear the word gay used as an insult?  If so, can you imagine how it would make you feel if the word "Christian" or "white" or "Asian", etc (whatever applies) was daily used as a synonym for "messed up"?  Biola has already admirably stated that this is not acceptable.  That was one of the first positive results of the dialogue so far:  an official stance on emotional safety for all students.

    The second thing that a dialogue might do is exactly what I was suggesting above: without necessarily changing individual beliefs on the morality of same sex relationships, giving legitimacy to each person's right to study the scripture diligently and come to their own conclusion on homosexuality and the Bible.  I don't agree with your interpretation. I personally think that holding the stance you do makes it hypocritical to play football or eat shrimp, etc.   But I think it's one valid way to interpret the Bible.  And I will defend your right to live out your life based on how you interpret it.  A dialogue may get students like me understanding why you can hold to such an apparent contradiction on one hand, and students like you understanding why I hold to such an apparent contradiction on the other hand.  And we both would benefit.   

    The third thing a dialogue might do is increase a sense of awe and faith..  Nowadays, we have anti-slavery movements in the church.  But that's not alwaysheave been the case.  I have a really high regard for people who've wrestled with "how can the Bible say me or my ancestors, should be enslaved willingly" and come out with a deeper faith in light of it, as I do for Christians who wrestle with "how can a loving all-powerful God have made me gay, and seemingly condemn that through the church and the scriptures?" Scriptures?".  I've learned so much about faith and beauty from listening to my peers' now resolved struggles with faith and homosexuality. (some are deliberately single, some not; their faith, regardless, is more genuine and authentic as the results of their taking an honest look at theirselves, their desires, and their beliefs.)
    May 17, 2012

  220. J.J.

    On the other hand, this is a very real, years' long struggle for queer Christians, and respect for that struggle is only going to make it easier to have the final resolution be one that involves retaining faith.  It's not a given.  I would estimate that it is a 50/50 chance someone will remain a Christian who is gay.  And sometimes, the deciding factor in whether someone remains in the faith or not is the treatment they receive within the church.  I've been in a church where the pastor was able to extend love and fellowship to a gay couple, while at the same time, he was clear that his personal position was not affirming, but he respected the couples' own thinking.  We all benefitted at the church from the demonstration of grace.  And that made it a church I could invite my formerly estranged church-going friend and her non- believing girlfriend to, who became valued members.  But prior to that, previous gay members had been in dialogue about what they found hurtful, to the point that one of them had to leave.  We learned a lot as a church by the talking, and I think it made us better ambassadors for Christ.
    May 17, 2012

  221. J.J.

    (Rereading, the results of some editing I did ended up making it look like I was calling myself a student. I wasn't intending that.) May 17, 2012

  222. Jason (C/O 2010)

    @ WCW
    You are salt and light. Hallelujah

    Love that last quote, "So there it is: I don't get to have premarital sex, Mikey doesn't get to steal, Sally doesn't get to lust, Joey doesn't get to cheat on his wife, Tommy doesn't get to take The Lord's name in vain, and the Biola Queer Underground doesn't get to have homosexual sexual relationships. Christ demands that we die to our flesh. Welcome to the club guys/gals/whatever. We all screw up. We're all imperfect. But we absolutely do NOT get to change the rules at our convenience.

    @ J.J.
    Why do you want people to hear this guy Matthew Vine from Harvard with his supposed 4000 hours of study. Did he somehow receive revelation that far greater scholars before him did not receive? Did he receive revelation in God's word that actually says what it does not say in God's Word? Or more to the point; the opposite? He may have received new revelation but if it contradicts God's word in any way then I'm sure his source came from a god with a small "g". You see it first started in the garden when the serpent said to Eve, "Did God really say you couldn't eat of the fruit?"

    There's nothing new under the sun, pal. The enemy has been playing this game with us for century's.

    It's my last post. Thank you Chime for the discussion.
    May 17, 2012

  223. KL

    If you can quote Leviticus to refute Homosexuality as a legitimate option for Christians, then please explain the relevance of these verses from the OT:

    Deuteronomy 23:1 "No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord."

    Deuteronomy 25:11-12 "If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity."

    Deuteronomy 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so [are] abomination unto the LORD thy God.

    Leviticus 20:18 "'If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people."


    So if we are using the OT to claim that Homosexuality is a sin, then woman also can't wear pants, can't defend themselves by grabbing a guy's junk, or have sex with her husband while on her period. Also if a guy has a terrible accident, he's out too. May 18, 2012

  224. Arlin Edmondson

    JJ:
    I have listened to Matthew Vines work.

    His scholarship is absolutely awful, even non existent. The man is incapable of reading the scriptures in a responsible or consistent way and he is intentionally reading into the scriptures his sinful desires as well as modern categories so as to gut the scriptures of any intended meaning.

    His work is currently being thoroughly examined and refuted by Apologist James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries who co-wrote:
    http://www.amazon.com/Same-Sex-Controversy-The-Homosexuality/dp/0764225243/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337487537&sr=8-1

    James White is spending FIVE HOURS refuting Matthew Vines' ONE HOUR presentation. When he is finished, he will edit the review together into one audio-program.

    James White is an author and a Pastor and debated the Muslim Shabbir Ally at BIOLA in 2006.

    When the refutation is done I will post it here, on Facebook, and on each Chimes article dealing with this subject.

    You would be wise to listen to it.

    You said:
    "We know God holds those dear because if His words in Genesis. "it is not good for man to be alone".

    And what was the whole verse?
    Then the LORD God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.”(Genesis 2:18 ESV)

    Unlike Matthew Vines assumption that a 'gay man' is the 'fit helper' of another 'gay man', the scripture says that the helper must 'correspond' to the man. Not be the same as the man, thus mirroring and not corresponding.

    The scripture says:
    "So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man." (Genesis 2:21-22 ESV)

    "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed."
    (Genesis 2:24-25 ESV)

    Any potentiality of sexual disorientation is absent from the original creation order.

    May 19, 2012

  225. Arlin Edmondson

    JJ, "But I'd also need to see them as saying that playing football, wearing 50% cotton trousers, and going back for seconds at a church social just because it tasted good (especially if it was shrimp or pork) was just as wrong."
    And this demonstrates that you have not diligently studied the scriptures nor desired to try and integrate the Old Testament with the New Testament that was written with the assumption that the Old Testament was true. The Old Testament was the scripture of Jesus and the Apostles and they believed it.

    Mixture of fabrics no longer applies to us, neither do food nor cleanliness laws, and I have no idea where 'not eating seconds because the food tastes good' comes from.
    These do not apply because Jesus 'declared all foods clean' 'fulfilled the laws, types and shadows' and the like, and the Apostles consistently dismiss the ceremonial laws as no longer applying to the Covenant Community.

    HOWEVER: The principles BEHIND the laws do apply. We should not mix together with unbelievers in marriage nor join with them in sin common in the culture. That is the principle behind many of the food laws and the other laws. That still applies and is strongly taught int he New Testament.


    KL:

    You are conflating ceremonial and civil laws and conflating them with enduring moral commands.

    Do you not know that Christ fulfilled the ceremonial laws? Do you not know that the civil laws applied only to national Israel?

    Do you not know that all moral commands persist?

    Do you not know that the New Testament itself makes these distinctions?

    Do you not know that you are required by God to treat the Word with some level of diligence, which you have not done?

    KL, pants had not even been INVENTED in the time when Deuteronomy was written.
    Men and woman wore robes along with some gender specific articles of clothing.

    Most clothing today is gender-neutral.

    A man wearing a woman's bathing suit or undergarments or the like would be described by that law, not the like.

    That law is commanding us to not confuse the genders.
    May 19, 2012

  226. J.j.

    Arlin, thanks for your response. You and I see the scholarship as different. I don't see where a condemnation of the scholarship comes from, independent of disagreeing with the conclusion, based on your post, but I am interested to see you've viewed it and kept to your original conclusion. Thank you for at least looking at the other side.

    In an aside, may I request, in the name of civil discourse, anyone who resond edits theirpost to remove comments that imply (unintentionally, im sure) a lack of respect for the other sides' thinking such as "would be wise" "demonstrates that you have not diligently studied thr scripture or desired to integrate the testaments" and "incapable"? This discussion is only going to be enjoyable, and therefore learnable from, if it stays loving and respectful. This sort of thing, I'm guessing, is part of what the Underground was formed for- it is extremely hurtful to hear from your peers that they are condemning you are not, somehow, a true scholar, or a true Christian, or have truly thought it out because you've come to a differerent conclusion. (and you can bet any queer Christian has spent significant time and thought on these issues- they are personal to us in a way that, say, circumcision may not be.) It comes across as bullying, though I'm sure it isn't meant that way. Thankfilly, you're not my peers, but I've still had enough of that, and need it to come from a different vein. Thanks.

    I don't buy that the two people in a loving relationship need to be different gender wise based on what you say from Genesis. Maybe I'm missing somethhing, but I don't see where the "need to correspond" comes out of scripture?

    The reference to greed (going back for unnacessary seconds) comes from 1cor 6:9-10. It strikes me if you keep part of the verse, you must keep all. And greedy seems less ambiguous in translation than many of the other words. So, if you see this verse as a matter of salvation, which is logical, temperance becomes of vital importance.

    I can see your point about the gender neutral and gendered garments, but I very much see that as ceremonial law, like tassels.

    May 21, 2012

  227. J.j.

    And, in retrospect, I am done with this discussion. Being the recipient of attacking words such as I talked about in the last post I got is proving too much. Some may see that as victory- I shut up. I think it sad. I no longer wish to dialogue on this matter, to share what I have to offer, (which at very least, could serve as iron on iron), and to hear what you do. Yet another nail in what may be the coffin of my willing engagement with other Christians on who I am and how I see things. Not because of the scriptures. But because of the church. This does not feel like even the minimum love implied in "love the sinner, hate the sin". Or even better, trust in Christ to convict, challenge, and inspire, in the spirit of Romans 2. Biola, I wish you luck as you wrestle both with the scriptures and how to treat those you disagree with. Over and out. May 21, 2012

  228. Arlin Edmondson

    JJ,
    you should listen to Doctor White's extensive critique of Matthew Vines' presentation when I post it here.

    I have listened to Vines, so has White.
    Moreover, White has done far more extensive research than Vines has ever done, on this subject or others.

    "You and I see the scholarship as different."

    This is simply invalid.

    Truths and facts do not change depending on your perspective. Linguistics and lexical realities do not bend to the whims of an individual's desires.

    Matthew Vines posited abject falsehoods that many non-Christian HOMOSEXUAL scholars have recognized.

    Matthew Vines has a particular agenda that is driving and fueling his attempts to distort the text to support his lifestyle.

    Non-Christian scholars and liberal scholars (IN the field of Ancient Histories), including homosexuals, who do not desire to maintain a sense of scriptural authority readily recognize that much of what Matthew Vines posited is simply false.

    Doctor James White's critique of Matthew Vines does a far better job than I could, since he is privy to a far larger portion of the scholarly material on the subject.

    Moreover, Vines' presentation is fundamentally internally inconsistent. He claims that 'the ancients had no concept of 'sexual orientation', which only we are now aware of'. Then he PRESUMES an awareness of a 'sexual orientation' when he dismisses almost everything Paul says as just referring to 'heterosexuals' who behave homosexually.

    For the second argument to be true, the first would be false, if the first is false, all the arguments based on the first point are now false. Undermining his point.

    If the second argument is false and the first is true, then Paul made no distinction between 'orientations' and lumped all homosexual behaviour together as sinful, again disproving Vines' entire presentation.

    And none of that even touches the raw exegetical realities of the texts which disprove both arguments anyway. Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument.

    "in the name of civil discourse, anyone who respond edits their post to remove comments that imply... a lack of respect for the other sides' thinking such as "would be wise" "demonstrates that you have not diligently studied the scripture or desired to integrate the testaments" and "incapable"? This discussion is only going to be enjoyable, and therefore learnable from, if it stays loving and respectful."

    Challenging falsehoods and poor thinking requires 'challenges' to the persons thinking and falsehoods.

    I have a spine. You can challenge me.
    If I can't thoughtfully refute you,
    then you establish a point.
    That is how discussion works.

    That is why it is called 'dis'-'cussion', from the Latin 'discutere' meaning 'to strike asunder'.



    May 23, 2012

  229. Arlin Edmondson

    JJ:
    "it is extremely hurtful to hear from your peers that they are condemning you are not, somehow, a true scholar, or a true Christian, or have truly thought it out because you've come to a differerent conclusion."

    The question is an issue of reality, exegesis, linguistics, and facts.

    Bad and shoddy scholarship deserves to be called exactly that. And John is the one who says: "They went out from us because THEY WERE NOT of us". In reference to apostates.
    It was Jesus who said: “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him." (John 14:23 ESV)

    I have been "hurt" all my life. I don't use my 'hurts' as the basis of my opinions. I have been 'hurt' all my life by truth, I, and not the truth, is in the wrong.

    You said:
    "It comes across as bullying, though I'm sure it isn't meant that way."

    Bullying?! REALLY? Wow.
    I know what it is like to be 'bullied'. Saying someone's scholarship is wretched is about as much 'bullying' as me telling a mechanic who broke my car worse that he did a bad job.
    Good grief.

    You say:
    "I don't see where the "need to correspond" comes out of scripture?"

    Uh, it is right there:
    "there was not found a helper fit for him."
    "the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man."

    The words translated 'a helper fit for him' means 'correspondence', lexically, when it is used as an adjective.

    A 'fit for him' helper is a corresponding helper with him. Not a divine help-meet, like God in our salvation, nor an inferior help-meet, like a servant or employee. A corresponding help-meet to the man, to fulfill his need for a companion and his inadequacy in and of himself, is a woman. A wife.
    Not a mirror image, ie: a man.

    "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh."

    You say:
    The reference to greed comes from 1cor 6:9-10. It strikes me if you keep part of the verse, you must keep all. So, if you see this verse as a matter of salvation, which is logical, temperance becomes of vital importance."

    It is of vital importance, but:
    "nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."(1 Corinthians 6:10 ESV)

    Where in this do you get the idea that you should not go back for seconds?

    I can down 5 pints of beer without getting myself drunk if I am responsible, pace myself, and eat with it. Temperance does not mean deprivation or not enjoying a meal. That is asceticism. Temperance means not gorging yourself or intoxicating yourself, or, if you are in area of poverty, depriving others of food for your own appetite.

    Temperance and asceticism are fundamentally different things.
    May 23, 2012

  230. Arlin Edmondson

    JJ:
    "I can see your point about the gender neutral and gendered garments, but I very much see that as ceremonial law, like tassels."

    Except that it is grounded in the difference between Men and Woman, not a sign to the gentiles of the Covenant people of God looking forward to the New Covenant wherein all nations will be blessed.

    That is the difference between a ceremonial law and a moral law:
    -Ceremonial Laws point to the need for and coming of Christ.
    -Moral Laws point to the God-designed and God-instituted realities of Human nature, established by God, which were then corrupted, distorted, disoriented, and made depraved by man.

    Again:
    When Doctor White's deconstruction of Matthew Vines lecture is posted as a singular file, I will post it on the relevant Chimes chats and on Facebook. May 23, 2012

  231. Arlin Edmondson

    A presentation by a 'homosexual christian' named Matthew Vines was posted on a Chimes article in defence of the 'BIOLA Underground'.

    Vines argues that homosexual behaviour is morally neutral and the Bible has nothing to say about 'loving homosexual relationships'.

    Vines is wrong on almost all scholarly, historical, factual, lexical, linguistic, and theological levels.

    I am posting an extensive point by point scholarly response to Vines' presentation. This is an extensive and scholarly response by Doctor James White to the presentation.

    The refutation INCLUDES the full audio presentation by Matthew Vines along with a point by point response. It is long and extensive, so don't listen all at once.

    http://aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=5086

    If you do not want to listen to the podcast,
    Doctor White co-authored a book on the topic as well:

    http://www.amazon.com/Same-Sex-Controversy-The-Homosexuality/dp/0764225243 May 23, 2012

  232. Jon Ruiz

    Good job Biola for NOT bowing to a increasingly sophisticated Gay movement. Stay strong and faithful. There are thousands of schools these gay students can attend, Biola should not be one of of them.

    While compassion here does NOT mean compromise, I do believe that if a student was found in violation of the contract Biola should go above and beyond to help them transfer to another reputable school, doing as much as possible to ensure they gain full credit for all the courses taken at Biola. May 24, 2012

  233. Matt Atha

    As a recent graduate of that "other" Evangelical university just to the north (aka. APU), I am so glad to see LGBTQ students at Biola striving to foster conversation and dialogue on their campus, despite the enormous weight and stress placed upon them by Biola's policies.

    As a 22-year-old man who considers himself a Christian and gay, I want to take a moment and address those who continue to insist that these two identities are antithetical and irreconcilable. There has been a great emphasis in this discussion about "what scripture says" and I merely wish to suggest to some of my more conservative peers that, perhaps, textual interpretation of these millenia old writings is not so clearly interpreted or adapted for our modern world. A previous commenter retorted to another, "Have you even read Leviticus 18, 19, and 20?," and I have to admit that it's been awhile. When citing the passages and proclaiming their clear distinct proclamations against same-sex acts (our understanding of sexual orientation did not exist at the time, so we don't find reference here to desires but merely acts), Christians often ignore those proclamations within the same passages against adultery or disobedient children. Others have pointed to the word's of Paul in various NT passages. While the Evangelical church has held to literal interpretation of these verses, it has now long since abandoned a literal interpretation of Jesus' unequivocal repudiation of divorce in Matthew 19.

    To those who argue "How can the church change 2000 years of teaching?," I point to a variety of examples in which the church has changed its views on issues that were once considered quite explicit in scripture. The most significant of these is of course slavery, which the church, though a great force in the abolition movement, was for much of history a proponent of slavery. Similar shift occurred in terms of viewpoints on divorce, remarriage, the shape of the world, and what was at the center of the solar system (Copernicus ring a bell?).

    All this being said, far more important to me is my personal journey reconciling my faith and sexual orientation. For a long time, I refused to acknowledge the possibility I might be attracted to the same sex and was involved in several heterosexual relationships. Nonetheless, the internal tension that finally came to a header left me in a place where only two options remained: come out or commit suicide. I am lucky I had great friends who kept pushing away from the latter. I came out publicly at APU this year, while in student leadership, and was amazed at the support I received from students, staff, and faculty. The response wasn't universal but it showed how far our campus has come in its willingness to acknowledge and try to support its LGBTQ students.

    I only hope Biola will continue down the same path.

    You can read more of my thoughts here:
    http://theunevenpath.wordpress.com

    Or contact me at:
    matthew.atha@gmail.com May 24, 2012

  234. Richie Conway

    Matt Atha-

    to your response to how can you change 2000 years of scriptural teaching... The bible doesn't promote slavery or say it's a good thing. That's been addressed earlier in many posts, including one in 125. Just because scripture is twisted to support something, doesn't mean scripture supports it. Same idea with the Crusades, it's hard to find any scriptural basis, but some people decided to twist it to do the actions.

    Secondly to your part about divorce. Merely because divorce is seen as ok in our culture in many churches doesn't mean it is ok.

    The issue is that in these cases you have mistaken culture norm/acceptance for scriptural support, when that isn't the case. Just because culture norms at various times have twisted culture to believe certain things, doesn't mean that they are supported by scripture.

    Here is my question... Whether homosexuality was supported or not in the Bible, do you think that there would be people who would argue for it regardless? Absolutely, just like the cases you pointed out- with slavery and divorce. Do you think people would still get drunk regardless of what the bible taught? Absolutely. And how about sex before marriage, do you think people try to twist scripture to support that? Absolutely. The problem is that they do so by parsing words. It's a legalistic view of scripture where it is seen as nothing but a legal document. Unfortunately, this legal document doesn't change like our constitutional and other legal documents.

    Although our American legal documents change with times and are reinterpreted, scripture is, as it is. It is eternal. May 24, 2012

  235. David Chung

    Hi Biola friends.
    For those of you who do not know me, I am David Chung, a Biola Fan in heart.
    I am the one who posts thousands of Facebook posts on Biola’s wall.
    From reading the Chimes, I found out that the LGBTQ community surfaced at Biola's campus. This really makes me angry because Satan himself is behind this to try to destroy Christ honoring institutions like Biola, Azusa, and Wheaton. In this post, I would like to share my own opinion concerning this matter. I pray that God gives me his strength to write with truth and grace.
    As Christians, we are all broken people saved by Christ's redemptive work on the cross. Since we have not been glorified yet, we will still struggle with sinful temptations like lust, pornography, homosexuality, gambling, etc. Therefore, it is our responsibility to help out our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who are struggling with sinful tendencies. This includes those in the faith who are struggling with homosexuality. These people need us to come along side them and pray for their healing.
    On the other hand, if someone blatantly goes against scripture and asks for acceptance of their sinful behavior as normal, especially at a Christian University, then this should not be tolerated because they put Biola on the spotlight in a negative way. However, this is where it gets difficult. How do we deal with these people without causing another Salem Witch trial? This is where I leave it up to God. I pray that he will give you the necessary tools to resolve this situation without bringing harm to innocent people. President Corey and the Biola Community, stay firm to what the word states and do not fall into post modernism and relativism!
    Your friend and supporter in Christ,
    David
    May 25, 2012

  236. Anonymous

    A much stronger case can be made, Scripturally, for tolerating polygyny than for homosexuality.

    The Old Testament has explicit rules for how to conduct polygnist relationships, and some of the patriarchs were polygynists. But homosexuality has been eternally rejected by God and His people.

    So, 10 years from now, when my oldest son arrives at Biola, at my direction he will establish a Biola Polygyny Underground, and will seek to marry 2 or 3 young women. Hey, church leaders are always complaining that there are too many young women and not enough men to marry them, so why not turn to the Old Testament to solve the problem?

    Ideally, polygynist marriages in our culture should be triads: One man, one homemaker woman, and one career woman. This way women who are so inclined, can have careers and yet enjoy the benefit of having a sister-wife at home who can handle cooking, laundry, babysitting, etc. This may work especially well for homeschooling, as too many homeschool families struggle on one income (which is our situation now).

    Conceivably, Christian women who aspire to form polygynist families, could even pair off -- one careerist, one would-be stay-at-home mom -- and offer themselves to the young men as a package deal -- 2 wives for the price of one!

    This makes a LOT more sense than homosexuality. And it would make dating very, very interesting... May 25, 2012

  237. Anonymous

    Upon reflection I regret my polygynist post.

    I meant it as sarcasm but after clicking submit, I realized that I just might be giving people *ideas*.
    May 25, 2012

  238. Brian Forbes

    Post 188 says, "I know that Jesus loves me no matter what. Even if I do make mistakes or let my emotions cloud my judgement. HE will be my only Judge. Not you or anyone judgmental like you."

    Hab. 2:18-19 "What have you gained by worshiping all your man-made idols? How foolish to trust in something made by your own hands! What fools you are to believe such lies! How terrible it will be for you who beg lifeless wooden idols to save you. You ask speechless stone images to tell you what to do. Can an idol speak for God? They may be overlaid with gold and silver, but they are lifeless inside."

    The Romans 1 passage is in reference to making idols leading to homosexuality. I just want to reiterate what seemed to be ignored. God is not made in our image. If he is, and He accepts your correction of his instruction, he is no longer the God of the universe, but a wooden idol, made in our own image. Give him your personality, your values, and make him pretty. See if your god saves you in your time of trouble.

    I don't want to serve a God that I project onto a page in my journal, or that I make up in a long and hard study, or that comes out of a deep abiding conviction. I want to serve the real God - the one who made us. I love his commands, from avoiding shrimp to the rejecting homosexuality. The commands are good, cuz they reflect a good God! God doesn't bend to us. We bend to God.

    --

    Arlin, I've really been enjoying your posts. Good job. You did say one thing, however, that I want to disagree with.

    "These [laws] do not apply because Jesus 'declared all foods clean' 'fulfilled the laws, types and shadows' and the like, and the Apostles consistently dismiss the ceremonial laws as no longer applying to the Covenant Community."

    I believe you'll find that Mark 7 does not declare foods clean.
    http://biblos.com/mark/7-19.htm
    He was saying that it's not what goes into a man that makes him unclean. If he was saying that all foods are clean in Mark 7, Peter sure didn't understand it that way. He told God "no" in his vision with the animals on the sheet. God declared the Gentiles clean who received his purification. God doesn't change!

    I think the key here, as you study this issue (as I know you are the type who will) is in the distinction between Jew and Gentile. We both have different roles in the symbolism. Just as men and women have different roles in the symbolism. Those secrets will be revealed later. We just need to be obedient now. May 25, 2012

  239. Richie Conway

    Brian Forbes-

    Arlin's interpretation of Mark 7 is valid. It's supported by those involved in the interpretation of the NIV, who even added, "(in saying this Jesus declared all foods clean)."


    Merely because Peter didn't understand what Chris was saying at the time, doesn't mean that the writer of the book of Mark also didn't understand what Christ was saying. There are many other examples in the gospels of things Jesus said that the apostles wondered what he was saying at the time; it's not an isolated case. May 26, 2012

  240. Ellen Bennett

    I'm shocked this has even come up as an issue at Biola. Thanks for the posts by Jason (c/o 2010) and others who are standing up for holiness. There's a big difference between asking for help to overcome an addiction, and trying to get everyone to believe that your addiction is perfectly okay.

    If Biola gives in to this group, it IS the beginning of the end for the school. Not to mention the Church. Talk about apostacy.
    May 27, 2012

  241. Robert

    "This sort of thing, I'm guessing, is part of what the Underground was formed for- it is extremely hurtful to hear from your peers that they are condemning you are not, somehow, a true scholar, or a true Christian, or have truly thought it out because you've come to a differerent conclusion."

    J.J., I get this point. Really, I do, because it is exactly the charge levelled against those who hold homosexuality to be sinful. We are so often condemned as brainwashed peons who've done nothing but drink the kool-aid of our pedogagical masters. So, it cuts both ways. I respect your tone. I respect your willingness to discuss this. I do not respect your labelling of Christians who use reason and scripture as bullies. These labels are conversation-stoppers. They do nothing to help your position. More importantly, they do nothing to promote relationship. Rather than calling someone a bully, perhaps you should address the arguments, or even address the statements that were "bullying."

    For the record, Arlin, it is not helpful to our argument to declare something or someone "bad scholarship." Demonstrate error and leave it at that. Let the bad scholarship speak for itself. It's generally considered ad hominem by your opponents, and is as unhelpful as J.J.'s calling you a bully. I appreciate your posts, btw, and applaud the work you've put into them.

    To Anon Y Mousse, #169, you would do well to take the same advice I offered J.J. Calling someone a bully is not a dialogue promoter. It's fairly obvious that you haven't read Arlin's posts or you wouldn't have made the statement that he is unwilling to hear your side. Your comments are dialogue-stopping name-calling.

    June 1, 2012

  242. Robert

    Also, there is a non-sequitur generally offered that I want to refute. Same-sex attracted individuals cannot have deep human companionship if they accept biblical norms. The secular argument parallels this: same-sex individuals are prohibited from marriage, therefore are discriminated against by anti-gay marriage laws. The response to the secular argument is that same-sex individuals can marry. They can have families. They cannot marry someone of the same sex, and they cannot alter the definition of marriage by labelling their partner their spouse ad hoc. Similarly, in response to the argument here, everyone has access to biblically acceptable deep companionship with members of either sex. The bible happens to define what the parameters of that companionship are.

    At worst, the complaint here equivocates "deep companionship" with "sexual and marital partner." It's obvious that heterosexuals and homosexuals can have deep companionship with either men or women according to biblical norms. The LBGT community should use the labels it means. In that case, it would become clear that deep human companionship, sexual intimacy via marital partnership, would become the same argument that the secular community is using for gay marriage. And this argument is flawed because marriage is a "kind" of human relationship and has an inherent definition that could be argued without biblical authority. Alexander Pruss gestures at an argument for this here http://alexanderpruss.blogspot.com/2012/05/marriage-and-natural-kinds.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter. For instance, marriage might be the kind of relationship that exists particularly for the purpose of perpetuating our race, therefore it need be ensured that marriage be between a man and a woman because both sexes are necessary in the rearing of children. This goes directly to the issue raised here that same-sex couples are unjustly prevented from parenting. Secular research confirms that children do better with two opposite gender parents.

    Once you allow biblical authority, the case for gay marriage falls apart as the "kind" is soldified and given non-amibiguous shape. Men and women are a kind of human, with a purpose for each other and for the rest of humanity. If this is true, then gender identity is an essential part of what it means to be a human. It is not a far jump to claim that without both genders, a child's gender identity will be flawed.
    June 1, 2012

  243. Robert

    "The LBGT community should use the labels it means. In that case, it would become clear that deep human companionship, sexual intimacy via marital partnership, would become the same argument that the secular community is using for gay marriage. "

    Sorry, no edit function, and I wanted to fix this. "The LBTQ underground and its proponents should use the labels it means. If they did, it would become clear that "sexual intimacy via marital partnership" is what they mean by "deep human companionship." How could it not since this is the only thing denied to them relationally? Therefore, their argument parallels the secular argument for gay marriage." End correction.

    Oh, and Alexandr Pruss's blog address.

    http://alexanderpruss.blogspot.com/2012/05/marriage-and-natural-kinds.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter June 1, 2012

  244. Jason

    Hear..hear..Sallie & Amaya ..Cheers with my glass of beer held high. Sorry, even though I am a born-again Christian I still have an inner struggle with my Catholicism roots. I know! Let's have a dialogue, a discussion if you will. I will not stay underground forever. Biola needs to know about me and my kind. I think Biola should change its policy and have a bar on campus for those who struggle like me. And then we will all sit around the table with our drinks and have honest dialogue....maybe....

    Just a humorous satire ladies and gentlemen. No offense to LGBT or Catholics. Love you both. Just having a little fun with the silliness of this all. June 2, 2012

  245. paul donnelly 78

    The passion of individuals opinions and values is important but so is humility and the desire that God continue to reveal His will through us individually.
    I am concerned however by the tone of some of these posts and find that it is important to be guided by Chirst's example as fully God and fully man during his time on earth. I do not support the behaviors of the group at the focus of this ongoing exchange of personal opinion, I do not however condemn their feelings, it is the acting upon them that is a sin.
    By the way someone remind me how often
    Christ is said to have addressed this issue? Oh yeah.... June 14, 2012

  246. Jim Bob

    Biola has been infiltrated with deception when it started to allow contemplative mysticism and other liberal ideas. Of course the homosexual activists infiltrated Biola in order to change it. Its working...it has been working since I graduated there as well. The gospel is not central to Biol anymore but instead is wanting to please the masses and get money from new students tuition. September 21, 2012

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